Registering and taxing aging MVs

[Jimh]

Let me run this past you and tell me if I have this straight. We are talking about a 1945 Pioneer.

 

1. I register it as a breakdown vehicle.

 

2. I can drive it on a Cat B (car) licence irrespective of its weight because it was registered prior to 1960 and is used unladen and is not towing a trailer.

 

3. It is exempt from plating because it is a breakdown vehicle. It is also exempt because of the 1 Jan 1960 cut off as long as it is used unladen and does not tow a trailer.

 

4. Since it was registered prior to 1974 it means it can be taxed as a historic vehicle and the VED is zero.

 

Right?

[Adrian Barrell]

Point 3 is not quite right. The 'pre-1960, used unladen' exemption is only for goods vehicles over 3500 kg unladen. If it's a breakdown, it's not a goods vehicle.

[Jimh]

Ah, but you would still be exempt from testing because you were a breakdown vehicle?

[Tony B]

I think you'll find the breackdown exemption is only for vehicles used exclusivley as breackdown vehicles.

Besdies with her age, the test will proably do the candles light? and are any bits falling off?

Edited March 4, 2009 by Tony B

[N.O.S.]

Doen't this depend on the relationship between how the vehicle is REGISTERED, TAXED and USED?

 

As I understand it Jim,

 

You could REGISTER (i.e. DESCRIBE) it as anything, say army truck or truck or agricultural machine or breakdown truck or mobile winch truck. I have log books for Constructors taxed as HISTORIC VEHICLE with 3 of these descriptions!!

 

 

If you go for a Historic Vehicle TAXATION CLASS, you can only use it under the terms of the legislation which allows you free road tax (and to be honest I'm getting confused as to what those terms are now!).

 

You could also use it to haul or tow loads commercially, in which case you might need a different TAXATION class and you may have to have it plated and tested.

 

You could also use it commercially as a Special Types/Vehicles i.e. a piece of Mobile Plant (winch vehicle) which can travel on highway unladen from job to job. In which case they will allow Historic Vehicle taxation class, as the restrictions of on highway use are similar in terms of testing etc. to Special Types taxation. I did this with a Constructor.

 

You could also use it for commercial recovery work, i.e. as a Breakdown Vehicle. I do not know what the taxation/testing requirements are for using a commercial BREAKDOWN VEHICLE, but be careful not to confuse a Special Types vehicle (i.e. off road breakdown/winching work) with Breakdown truck (i.e. recovery on highway of disabled vehicles).

 

You need to decide what you want to use the Pioneer for on the highway, and TAX it accordingly.

 

What you do with it off-road is between you and your insurance.

 

If ON HIGHWAY USE will be for social domenstic and pleasure then why not just call it a 'truck' and go for Historic taxation?

 

You can REGISTER it as what you want, it only appears as a "description" on the Vehicle Registration Document.

 

(When I registered a Lorry mounted Drilling Rig, the Log book came back with Bulldozer - no idea where DVLA got that from, but doesn't matter - it is taxed as Special Vehicles and it is that which regulates its use on highway).

 

I think the following statement is corect:

 

The key is - it doesn't matter what you register it as, it is the TAXATION CLASS which determines what you can or cannot do with it on the highway, and what testing requirements and carrying/towing restristions apply.

 

Hope this helps :-D :n00b:

Edited March 4, 2009 by N.O.S.

[Grumpy]

A recovery vehicle cannot be taxed as Historic Tax as it does not fit into the qualifying categories. See here:

 

INF34-Notes on Historic Tax.pdf

[radiomike7]

A recovery vehicle cannot be taxed as Historic Tax as it does not fit into the qualifying categories. See here:

 

 

 

But many Pioneers were converted into haulage vehicles, retaining the crane to raise the spare wheel.....

[julezee001]

Surely the defining definition of "Historic Vehicle" is any vehicle manufactured before 1 Jan 1973?

 

Obviously if you want to use a recovery vehicle manufactured before that date commercially, then you need to Tax it as Recovery, have the correct insurance, and correct driving licence class. If you only want to use it to recover for FUN then I would understand Historic Vehicle to be fine, again assuming the correct insurance, and licence?

 

Having jumped through all the hoops to prove the age of my Explorer (1954) there was no problem with registering it as Historic, indeed I've been led to believe it would be far more difficult to change it from Historic to another class!

 

Jules

[croc]

Surely the defining definition of "Historic Vehicle" is any vehicle manufactured before 1 Jan 1973?

 

Jules

I would go along with that but add "not used for hire or reward"

My Explorer was taxed as a mobile crane, on a Q plate, before I got it. I went through the registration process, without any problems, to get an age related plate. The registration certificate came back as "body type = Breakdown Truck" "taxation class = Historic Vehicle".

[gritineye]

The registration certificate came back as "body type = Breakdown Truck" "taxation class = Historic Vehicle".

 

Mine is also called a Breakdown Truck

 

1996, when first taxed by me after MOD it was taxed private light goods for the first year. I just told them I wasn't using it commecialy.

 

1997 they changed it to taxation class : 25 year exempt.

 

2005 they changed it to taxation class : historic vehicle.

 

I think it comes under: e) Haulage Vehicles - not used for haulage purposes.

 

Anyway they ain't got a leg to stand on after 12 years, they've had enough goes at it now!

Edited March 5, 2009 by gritineye

[6 X 6]

While we are discussing these matters.....height indicators.....are they a legal requirement in a pre-1960 vehicle with a traveling height over 9' 10" that is taxed, and used, as a historic vehicle ? I think they do. Does anyone know for certain ? Thanks.

 

Edited March 5, 2009 by 6 X 6

[Jimh]

The only other thing I have to go on is the old style blue and white vehicle registration document which gives the taxation class as recovery vehicle. I know that the terminology has changed now but it must be reasonable evidence that it is a recovery vehicle. The thing is that when it was taxed as a recovery vehicle the owners were using as as a recovery vehicle. I can't find anything which says a recovery vehicle is anything which can reasonably be used to recover something or if the classification only applies to vehicles which are actively engaged in recovery. That is if you were pulled by VOSA and found that rather than travelling to or returning from a recovery you are just driving round burning up fuel are you in trouble?

 

I see that breakdown vehicle isn't on that qualifying list for the historic taxation. Does that mean it would be better to call it a private HGV and get round the plating and licensing problems on the pre 1/1/60 thing?

[croc]

"recovery vehicle" is a taxation class, which gives you an MOT exemption regardless of age but only allows specific use.

For a Pioneer you will need proof of age but you can tax it as "Historic" (as long as you don't want to use it comercially) and still get the MOT exemption due to age. Granted, there are lots of people with different interpretations of the rules, but there are enough Pioneers about registered like this to set a precedent.

[Grumpy]

Surely the defining definition of "Historic Vehicle" is any vehicle manufactured before 1 Jan 1973?

 

Jules

 

Have you read the INF34 leaflet enclosed with my post? :coffee:

 

There are two criteria for claiming “Exemption from VED for Historic Vehicles” One as you point out is it has to be manufactured before 1st January 1973 and the other is it must be one of the qualifying vehicle types, of which a recovery vehicle is not. :nono:

 

In legal terms in the UK, a vehicle is a historic vehicle if it was manufactured more than 25 years before the occasion on which it is being driven.

 

A vehicle being Historic and the claiming of exemption from VED for Historic Vehicles are two entirely different things.

 

You can reclassify your recovery vehicle to something else, such as a locomotive for example, but technically this should be shown on the log book. However if you do reclassify you can no longer claim exemption form MOT / Plating on the basis of it being a recovery vehicle. Bit of a bummer, if you have, for example, a 1970 AEC Militant Recovery. :argh:

 

With Pioneers you can still claim exemption from MOT / Plating if you reclassify it, on the basis of it being first used before 1st January 1960, as long as you are using it unladen and not drawing a laden trailer, this includes recovering another vehicle. But the Log book needs to record this reclassification.

[N.O.S.]

But many Pioneers were converted into haulage vehicles, retaining the crane to raise the spare wheel.....

 

But if they were converted to haulage vehicles presumably they were taxed as such, and not taxed as Recovery Trucks

 

ISTR Antarmike described the registration of his Antar as a Heavy Locomotive, and he runs on STGO2, but I can't find the post.

 

Mike - are you still able to tax the Antar as Historic, and can you remind us what what vehicle testing do you need to comply with, or do you tax, test and and run it as a private HGV vehicle?

 

Jim, if you go for private HGV, you would have to pay £175 odd tax and would you not then need to have the vehicle tested annually, regardless of age?

[N.O.S.]

With Pioneers you can still claim exemption from MOT / Plating if you reclassify it, on the basis of it being first used before 1st January 1960, as long as you are using it unladen and not drawing a laden trailer, this includes recovering another vehicle. But the Log book needs to record this reclassification.

 

That is the interesting bit Grumpy, thanks.

 

I reckon a lot of vehicles were registered as Agricultural Machine etc in the days before the Historic/Test concession, simply as a way around testing.

 

For example my Autocar was registered as an Agricultural Vehicle when I acquired it (first registered 1976 ish). I had to send the Registration document back for a variety of information updates, and declared it as an articulated lorry tractor unit. Yes, the new document just says "Tractor". Oh well I tried :-D

 

I wonder if it really makes much difference what the description says if you are only operating within the confines of Historic tax class :confused:

 

Trying to summarise the position, are the following anywhere near correct?

 

Used unladen and not drawing a laden trailer or broken down vehicle - Historic tax ok (if pre 1974) and pre-1960 test exemption if over 3500kg

 

Used laden and/or drawing a laden trailer or broken down vehicle (not hire/reward) - Historic tax ok (if pre 1974), but testing required (even if pre-1960)

 

Used for any Hire/Reward purpose with/without load/trailer - appropriate taxation (not Historic, even if pre 1974) and plating/testing required (even if pre-1960)

 

Yet again, you can see why Jeeps are so popular :-D:-D

Edited March 5, 2009 by N.O.S.

[Grumpy]

 

ISTR Antarmike described the registration of his Antar as a Heavy Locomotive, and he runs on STGO2, but I can't find the post.

 

Mike - are you still able to tax the Antar as Historic, and can you remind us what what vehicle testing do you need to comply with, or do you tax, test and and run it as a private HGV vehicle?

 

 

:nono::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[N.O.S.]

I just though it might be helpful :-D

[Grumpy]

That is the interesting bit Grumpy, thanks.

 

I

 

Used laden and/or drawing a laden trailer or broken down vehicle (not hire/reward) - Historic tax ok, but testing required, even if pre-1960

 

 

 

Possibly not drawing a broken down vehicle, bit of a grey area if on a solid bar. Remember recovering a broken down vehicle using suspended tow or solid bar can only be done for a distance that is Reasonable to clear the obstruction from the highway.

[Grumpy]

I just though it might be helpful :-D

 

 

Like a box of matches and a can of petrol useful :rofl:

[gritineye]

For Historic Vehicle exemption purposes recovery vehicles qualify under: e) Haulage Vehicles - not used for haulage purposes.

 

Haul; To pull or drag forcibly; transport by lorry or cart.

I have always understood that an Explorer/Pioneer is unable to be tested due to the fact that each road wheel brake on the rear bogey cannot be tested individually.

A load cannot be imposed for test purposes. And that the air brake system is non compliant with modern thinking.

 

This would apply whether it was recovery or ballast bodied, or whenever it was registered/manufactured.

[N.O.S.]

I have always understood that an Explorer/Pioneer is unable to be tested due to the fact that each road wheel brake on the rear bogey cannot be tested individually.

 

If you take a vehicle for test which is too wide for rollers or no inter-axle diff (which is effectively what the Explorer is) they just do a subjective brake test on the test ramp and in the yard. At least that is what happened to me about 16 years ago. I would think each test centre has its own way around it.

[Grumpy]

For Historic Vehicle exemption purposes recovery vehicles qualify under: e) Haulage Vehicles - not used for haulage purposes.

 

Haul; To pull or drag forcibly; transport by lorry or cart.

 

.

 

But the point is Haulage Vehicles are not MOT Exempt due to their type / use in the same way recovery vehicles are.

You can’t call it a Haulage vehicle one day to get free tax and then call it a recovery vehicle another day to make it MOT exempt, its one or the other.

But if it’s a Haulage vehicle that was first used before 1st Janurary 1960 you can claim both, however if its listed as a Breakdown Truck, Recovery Body or something similar on the V5 in the “Body / Vehicle Type” box and 43 in the adjacent code box this needs to be changed before you can claim free tax.

Full list of Body / Vehicle Types c/w Codes for Rigid Vehicles >3500Kg:

Code DVLA Description

22 Panel Van

23 Box Van

26 Pick-up

27 Motor Home/Caravan

28 Van/Side Windows

30 Pantechnicon

31 Luton Van

32 Insulated Van

33 Glass Carrier

34 Specially Fitted Van

36 Livestock Carrier

38 Flat Lorry

39 Dropside Lorry

40 Tipper

41 Low Loader

43 Breakdown Truck

44 Tanker

45 Solid Bulk Carrier

46 Concrete Mixer

47 Mobile Plant

48 Car Transporter

49 Refuse Disposal

52 Skip Loader

53 Special Mobile Unit

55 Airport Support

56 S/D Bus/Coach (Single Deck)

57 D/D Bus/Coach (Double Deck)

58 Standee Bus

59 H/D Bus/Coach (Half Deck)

60 Minibus

61 Curtain-Sided

74 Road Testing

76 Ambulance

77 Fire Engine

81 Line Painter

83 Street Cleansing

84 Gritting Vehicle

85 Tower Wagon

88 Snow Plough

94 Cesspool Emptier

95 Skeletal Vehicle

[julezee001]

Grumpy, your suggestion seems to be that because "Recovery Vehicles" are not specifically listed on the form "V10" that they can never be Historic Vehicles. Yet I would suggest that the form is only a guide, and that any road going vehicle not used commercially and Manufactured before 1 Jan 1973 can be Historic. The evidence of the DVLA's dealing with such vehicles also suggest that they don't consider it a problem to have a Recovery truck on an Historic Vehicle tax class??

 

My brothers Explorer was a Mobile crane before going 25 years tax exempt, then Historic, and I was the first to register my Explorer for the road in 2005, and the DVLA never commented when making it Historic.

 

 

Jules

[antarmike]

Re test exeptions

 

Section 47 Road traffic Act 1988 Reg 6 Motor Vehicle (tests) regulations 1981

 

S47 (requirement for a test certificate) does not apply to the following vehicles.

(1) Heavy Locomotive.

(ii) Light Locomotive.

(iii) motor Tractor.

 

we then get onto can an Explorer or a Pioneer meet the criteria for a locomotive...

Edited March 5, 2009 by antarmike