... drivers licences

[Joris]

Do you need a special drivers licence in England when you want to drive a vehicle over 3500kg ?

 

Do you need a special licence to drive a tracked vehicle?

[ArtistsRifles]

Over 3.5 tonnes - no.

Over 7.5 tonnes - yes. But there are some "get out" clauses on the DVLA website which can cover you on this - my favourite being the "mobile display unit" (or words to that effect).

 

For a tracked vehicle you need to get group H added to your license which means taking a driving test on a track laying vehicle steered by it's tracks.

[Joris]

Thanks!

 

So if I understand it correctly, when you have a driverslicence for a normal 1200kg sedan you are also allowed to drive a 4500kg truck? I'm going to move to the UK!

[ArtistsRifles]

You wouldn't like all the tax bills over here - especially the ones on fuel :cry:

 

Just checked the DVAL website - forgot the rules changed for those who passed their test after 1st Jan 1997. If you passed your driving test after this date then to drive a vehicle between 3.5 and 7.5 tonnes you need an additional group - "C1" - added to your license which means taking another test.

Unless the vehicle is registered prior to 1960 - then as a historic vehicle it can be driven on the ordinary car licence (group "B") irrespective of weight......

 

You can see all the requirements here: http://www.dvla.gov.uk/drivers/vehicle_cat_desc.htm

[Joris]

Wow I wish we'd have those rules too although I'd probably be unable to drive a GMC. Those things are BIG!!!

[AlienFTM]

I passed my Group A test in 1973 before joining the Army in 1975. Posted to my first posting part-way through a Northern Ireland tour, I was astonished to learn that I was qualified to drive a Ferret Scout Car, which was actually classified as Group B (Same as A but with an automatic gearbox). I did in fact drive a Ferret in NI based on this (it wouldn't have been a problem anyway since, being on military duties I could have driven anything at all on a provisional licence and there'd always be two of us. L plates might make me a target though).

 

Being in Tidworth from the start of the tour, with everybody else who hadn't done one, I did a couple-of-days' Ferret familiarisation course before heading off to UNFICYP for six months where all we had was Ferrets. I think I may have been given a test but it meant nothing - like I say I already had Group B on my licence.

 

Even more astonishing, maybe 1978 I was sent on a Saracen course. It involved a couple of days Maintenance training and a couple of days driving round the Paderborn Ring Road. But at the end of it, I again didn't get anything on my licence as the Saracen was also classified as Group B, even if it did weigh a whole lot more. At that time we might even still have beeing driving the double-decker APCRA Saracens instead of the ACV Saracens we were meant to have been issued.

 

As has been made clear elsewhere, the rules were greatly tightened in the 1990s and if you were to be tested now, it'd be a completely different kettle of fish.

[Joris]

Unless the vehicle is registered prior to 1960 - then as a historic vehicle it can be driven on the ordinary car licence (group "B") irrespective of weight......

 

 

This is only irrespective of weight or also of tracked or non-tracked?

[Guest matt]

Hi MM,

 

If you can drive a Dodge you can drive a CCKW,I find the GMC easier to be honest,better steering and gearbox too.

 

Matt.

[ArtistsRifles]

Unless the vehicle is registered prior to 1960 - then as a historic vehicle it can be driven on the ordinary car licence (group "B") irrespective of weight......

 

 

This is only irrespective of weight or also of tracked or non-tracked?

 

Weight I believe - AFAIK - you would still require the group "H" test for the tracked vehicles.

[Cara]

I only passed my test in 2000 (I think) and only have a normal license. I can drive Dodge's, Jimmy's etc, even the half-tracks (If I wanted to, which I don't).

 

The main one that I have to deal with, is if I want to tow a trailer, I now have to take a trailer license. :cry:

 

The problem with DVLA is that they don't mention anything about Historic Military vehicles on their website.

 

You are best to phone the DVLA regarding Historic Vehicles to find out what you can and can't drive.

 

Cara

x

[Joris]

In Holland you can drive with a trailer if it weights no more then 750kg and even more is the weight of the the trailer does not exceed the weight of the car (and the combination weights no more then 3500kg).

 

I also just read that a vehicle that weights more then 3500kg because of armour plating can still be driven with a normal licence if the weight of the vehicle minus the weight of the armour is less then 3500kg. Nifty!

[ArtistsRifles]

I only passed my test in 2000 (I think) and only have a normal license. I can drive Dodge's, Jimmy's etc, even the half-tracks (If I wanted to, which I don't).

 

The main one that I have to deal with, is if I want to tow a trailer, I now have to take a trailer license. :cry:

 

The problem with DVLA is that they don't mention anything about Historic Military vehicles on their website.

 

You are best to phone the DVLA regarding Historic Vehicles to find out what you can and can't drive.

 

Cara

x

 

Cara - you can drive these on your car ("B") license because they are pre- 1960 build. It's one of the crazy apects of UK motoring - With just a "B" license you can drive - say - a 20 tonne Scammell or Antar because it's pre 1960. Soon as it goes into 1961 you need the "C1" license unless you are prepared to go and argue the case for one of a very few exemption categories. I think all historic vehicles, irrespective of age should have the specialist license requirements removed - these categories should only be for vehicles used on a daily basis & for hire and reward.

[commander]

Matt wrote

 

"Hi MM,

 

If you can drive a Dodge you can drive a CCKW,I find the GMC easier to be honest,better steering and gearbox too.

 

Matt."

 

I think your brains have been rattled to much in that GMC with

a statement like that , EASIER LOL LOL

[mick garner]

Hi all,

I think that if you register your vehicle as an 'agricultural tractor' (if you can)!!! you can get out of that 7.5 tonne limit. I've heard of a few Stalwarts like this. Obviously this will only apply to certain vehicles although I don't really know exactly what 'is an agricultural tractor' and whats not. And of course if you have a diesel motor you get red diesel!!!

Mick.

[fv1609]

We have a small tractor which is taxed but free of duty there is a radius of use from our smallholding. I once saw a Morris armoured car registered as an agricultural vehicle. But I think we have to not abuse these regulations. Not only will insurance be invalid but it is bad for the MV movement if we are seen to be irresponsible & in the present climate (look at France) breaking the law like this is not very clever for any of us.

[ArtistsRifles]

This - potentially - is a bit of a minefield and as Clive rightly says no one wants to drop the movement into the cack!

With that thought in mind I asked a friend who is a long-time serving traffic police officer what the story would be for me driving a 1960's Stalwart on a "B" license - this is his reply (no names - no pack drill)

 

Wow what a low baller that was, do you write promotion board questions by chance??

 

You have most likely looked at DVLA site, personally I found it more user friendly than any of the reference books we have at work!!

 

Look here http://www.dvla.gov.uk/drivers/special_licensing_arrangements_f.htm

 

The section I think applies is q

 

constructed or adapted to carry not more than 8 persons in addition to the driver and carries principally goods or burden consisting of;

i. play or educational equipment and articles required in connection with the use of such equipment, or

ii. articles required for the purposes of display or of an exhibition, and the primary purpose of which is used as a recreational, educational or instructional facility when stationary.

 

 

Drivers must be aged 21 and have held a category B licence for at least 2 years. A mobile project vehicle may only be driven on behalf of a non-commercial body. However, drivers who passed their car test before 1 January 1997 are not subject to these conditions

 

 

The last bit seems to cancel out the conditions? Also look at clause L, would your vehicle be of this age or younger?

 

To be honest in this day and age I very much doubt that,

 

1) you would ever get stopped.

 

2) The 'Hombre' that stopped you would have any idea of which exemptions you could claim, (unless you struck the jackpot and met an 'old time' traffic cop, of which we are a dying breed!!).

 

Hope this helps, it is worth thinking of a couple of points though. If you decided to contact DVLA and they said Niet, would your concience allow you to go ahead regardless? knowing you I think not. If however you decided to go ahead based on what you interpreted from the DVLA web site, and lets face it if they can'tr get it right who can? if you ever got stopped the worst I could see you could be reported for is 'driving otherwise than in accordance with a licence', this is a very broad offence brought in to 'simplify' things, in reality it is a get out clause for all the little shits, but if you weere to defend yourself and point out that you were only driving based on the info you gleaned from DVLA web site then I think you would get off.

 

It's a very listened too defence by the courts these days, "I would never have done it if I knew it was illegal your worship" In these days with the all powerful Human rights act, they have to justify to you why they find you guilty, and IMHO I think they would struggle given what I've said above.

 

Still awake? Isn't traffic law interesting?

 

As any vehicle I get will be carrying information boards for display carrying technical information on the vehicle, the vehicles history both generic and specific as well as exactly what a"HMLC" really is my feeling is that section q WILL cover me.

Of course - if plans for a Stalwart fall through for any reason and I rever to plan C (plan A was a DUKW - now priced out of reality) then that will be anything from the 1950's and the entire question becomes academic as any vehicle pre-1960 is exempt from the weight regulations provided it is registered as a historic vehicle.

[Marmite!!]

This - potentially - is a bit of a minefield and as Clive rightly says no one wants to drop the movement into the cack!

With that thought in mind I asked a friend who is a long-time serving traffic police officer what the story would be for me driving a 1960's Stalwart on a "B" license - this is his reply (no names - no pack drill)

 

Wow what a low baller that was, do you write promotion board questions by chance??

 

You have most likely looked at DVLA site, personally I found it more user friendly than any of the reference books we have at work!!

 

Look here http://www.dvla.gov.uk/drivers/special_licensing_arrangements_f.htm

 

The section I think applies is q

 

constructed or adapted to carry ...................

 

As any vehicle I get will be carrying information boards for display carrying technical information on the vehicle, the vehicles history both generic and specific as well as exactly what a"HMLC" really is my feeling is that section q WILL cover me.

Of course - if plans for a Stalwart fall through for any reason and I rever to plan C (plan A was a DUKW - now priced out of reality) then that will be anything from the 1950's and the entire question becomes academic as any vehicle pre-1960 is exempt from the weight regulations provided it is registered as a historic vehicle.

 

Neil,

 

Clause Q..

"mobile project vehicles - having a maximum authorised mass exceeding 3.5 tonnes and constructed..... "

 

The vehicle in question would have to be registered as a Mobile Project Vehicle to be able to drive it under this clause, I know this as I contacted the DVLA recently on registering a Saladin as a MPV..

[ArtistsRifles]

Thanks Lee- good point that I forgot to mention!!!

 

You know - it's be a hell of a lot simpler if they just declared a set period - say 40 years - after which a vehicle becomes a Historic Vehicle and is thus exempt from all the "C1"/"C1E" licensing crap. These are really only there for those driving for hire or reward - just say anything over 40 years cannot be used for hire and reward and thus can be driven on a B license.

Failing that - introduce a non-vocational "C1" or "C1E" that cannot be used to obtain employment, only for limited use in driving Historic Vehicles and drop most of the OTT requirements inc the medical ones for the non-vocational ones.

[AlienFTM]

if you ever got stopped the worst I could see you could be reported for is 'driving otherwise than in accordance with a licence', this is a very broad offence brought in to 'simplify' things, in reality it is a get out clause for all the little shits,

 

pmsl. Sounds like The Army Act 1955, Section 69A, entitled something like, "Conduct prejudicial to the maintenance of good order and military discipline."

 

During my 88 days' pensionable service in the Royal Military Police in 1975 (before I told them where to stick their truncheons) we were told that Section 69A was known in their circles as the "Ways And Means Act."

 

About 1981 in the cavalry we got a new RSM and one of his first edicts was that Section 69A was NOT to be used when bringing a charge. If the NCO couldn't find a more appropriate charge than Section 69A, either it wasn't a charge worth bringing or he wasn't a very good NCO.

[snowtracdave]

Okay - so who can tell me what category you need to tow a four wheeled trailer - I'm talking Brockhouse / Lynton / whatever type office trailer here and I'm thinking that these qualify as a drawbar trailer (?) and fall into a different category.

[ian2b]

Okay - so who can tell me what category you need to tow a four wheeled trailer - I'm talking Brockhouse / Lynton / whatever type office trailer here and I'm thinking that these qualify as a drawbar trailer (?) and fall into a different category.

 

 

Hi Dave,

C1 - which covers "Vehicles between 3500kg and 7500kg with a trailer upto 750kg"

so only covers a small trailer.

C1+E - which covers "Vehicles between 3500kg and 7500kg with a trailer over 750kg combined weight not more than 12000kg.

Now my C1+E has a code restriction on it "107" which then states "Not more than 8250kg" which will be the combined weight.

 

So as long as my total weight vehicle and trailer do not exceed total weight 8250kg I am ok. My trailer weights 3400kg so I take it as long as my vehicle does not exceed 4850kg I am still within my licence entitlement.

 

Please if anyone has anyother views please let me know.

[TooTallMike]

It's not just about licenses though.

There are 3 areas you need to look at:

 

Driving license: depends on: age of towing vehicle and trailer, when you got your license, how heavy the towing vehicle is, how heavy the trailer is, how heavy the combination is, what they are both registered as, whether they are laden or not.

 

Taxation status of towing vehicle and of trailer: depends on: age of towing vehicle and trailer, how heavy the towing vehicle is, how heavy the trailer is, what they are both registered as, whether they are laden or not.

 

MoT or Plating & Testing: depends on: age of towing vehicle and trailer, how heavy the towing vehicle is, how heavy the trailer is, what they are both registered as, whether they are laden or not.

 

If it's converted as a caravan, mobile home etc. you may be exempt from this. Many of the guys on the commercial vehicle rally scene who restore artic tractor units and tow box trailers converted to mobile homes drive them on a car license.

 

Many of these problems will go away when you locate the data plate which indicates your trailer was built before 1st Jan. 1960. It may look freshly stamped but that's because you had to wipe the grime off it to read it clearly...

 

I hate all this inconsistent legislation but it plays into our hands because as someone has already pointed out, it allows you the plea that you had researched it and thought you were in the right.

[TooTallMike]

These extracts from the reg's may help:

 

(and no, our vehicles do not count as military vehicles for the pruposes of law as they are not on active service.)

 

--------------------------------------

 

Statutory Instrument 1996 No. 2824

The Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) Regulations 1996 - continued

 

PART IV

 

GOODS AND PASSENGER-CARRYING VEHICLES

 

General

Part IV of the Traffic Act: prescribed classes of large goods and passenger-carrying vehicle :

 

[Class C or C+E license]Exempted goods vehicles and military vehicles :

 

48.—(1) For the purposes of this Part of these Regulations, an exempted goods vehicle is a vehicle falling within any of the following classes—

 

(l) a vehicle manufactured before 1st January 1960, used unladen and not drawing a laden trailer;

 

--------------------------------------------

 

Statutory Instrument 1988 No. 1478

The Goods Vehicles (Plating and Testing) Regulations 1988 - continued

 

SCHEDULE 2

Regulation 4

CLASSES OF VEHICLE TO WHICH THESE REGULATIONS DO NOT APPLY

 

30. Motor vehicles first used before 1st January 1960, used unladen and not drawing a laden trailer, and trailers manufactured before 1st January 1960 and used unladen. For the purposes of this paragraph any determination as to when a motor vehicle is first used shall be made as provided in regulation 3(3) of the Construction and Use Regulations.

 

 

[TooTallMike]

To clarify my first post (not!), see the following example for the Ward towing a pre-1960 trailer:

 

License:

car license if unladen truck & trailer

C+E required if laden truck or trailer

 

Taxation:

truck: exempt as built pre-1972; grey area when towing laden trailer (I go for still exempt)

trailer: exempt if unladen as built pre-1972; pay tax if laden

 

Plating & Testing:

truck: exempt if unladen 1) as it’s pre 1960 and 2) as it’s registered as (but not taxed as) a recovery vehicle; exempt if laden or towing a laden trailer as it’s registered as (but not taxed as) a recovery vehicle.

trailer: exempt if unladen; P&T required if laden

 

This is fun isn't it! :-D

 

[ian2b]

To clarify my first post (not!), see the following example for the Ward towing a pre-1960 trailer:

 

License:

car license if unladen truck & trailer

C+E required if laden truck or trailer

 

Taxation:

truck: exempt as built pre-1972; grey area when towing laden trailer (I go for still exempt)

trailer: exempt if unladen as built pre-1972; pay tax if laden

 

Plating & Testing:

truck: exempt if unladen 1) as it’s pre 1960 and 2) as it’s registered as (but not taxed as) a recovery vehicle; exempt if laden or towing a laden trailer as it’s registered as (but not taxed as) a recovery vehicle.

trailer: exempt if unladen; P&T required if laden

 

This is fun isn't it! :-D

 

 

 

Now I am confused. So is my trailer classed as laden even if it is converted to living accomadation (like a caravan) or only when it carrys equipment etc. I believe my trailer is around 1968 but my lorry is 1958.

 

Nothing is straight forward these days