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RAF Blue in WW2- Fact or Fiction


LarryH57

Question

Over the last 30 years I have seen a fair number of WW2 MV's painted in RAF blue and I have often wondered how accurate they are in that colour.

 

When you study war time photos of the RAF in the UK you will see that from very early in the war RAF vehicles from staff cars to fuel bowsers were painted in disruptive camo that I believe was green & brown and that as the war progressed colours changed to match the Army with black disruptive paint over brown (?) and later mickey mouse type camouflage.

 

I have not found a photo of RAF blue & yellow cab roof either in WW2 though I did see a colour photo of an all yellow Beaverette used as crash rescue on a Bomber Command airfield circa 1944 (for use by firemen in asbestos suits to get in close)

 

So why is it that MV owners paint their 1942-45 era RAF vehicles blue and why for that matter does the film industry do the same! Is getting an award more preferable than accuracy?

 

Finally can anyone say for sure when RAF blue was first used-1918? And when did it make a comeback after WW2?

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Dear Bob,

Thanks for sharing these photos. The following is my take on the vehicle photos;

1. Starting with the Albion AM463 refueller in the back ground it does look green and brown rather than two greens of G3 and G4.

2. The Trolley Acc in RAF blue-grey is quite typical, as it is too insignificant to get the camo treatment

3- The four shots of the Bedford MSC vehicle also look to be decidedly green and brown, even if I adjust the colour and although I admit to being a doubter of such schemes, I think at the time of the Battle of Britain there was either a lack of AMO guidance for the RAF in the UK or perhaps a decision that locally acquired paints etc should be used until an AMO gave guidance. I know we have to make allowances for colour movie film but I cannot 'change' it on the PC to be G3 green and G4 dark green. Never say never?

4. Regarding the WAAAF on the Fordson N I have posted this on HMVF before.  I did wonder if this was a colourised photo. Assuming it isn't I have been told on here that it may be a hurriedly purchased civi tractor that were switched from being orange and delivered in gloss green. It still has the Fordson lettering picked out in red - orange. As for the wheels ???

5. The Westland Whirlwind shot shows a Trolley Acc in RAF Blue Grey with white wheels as mentioned previously. Why white?

6. The Fordson Roadless and Bowser I have seen before and referred to Mike Starmer (of WW2 colours fame) and he like me, in comparison with other shots from the sequence, says it appears to be G3 base coat with G5 Light Green as camo. Could that be the answer to the Bedford MSCs mentioned in 3. above? This photo dates to August 1941.

7. The Albion AM463 refueller in front of the Spitfire also dates from 1941 appears to be G3 Green but not much else shows. It is from Life Magazine I think.

8. The Commer Q2 with a green upper camouflage in a 'quasi' mickey mouse scheme is very interesting to me as I am logging examples of when the RAF got it wrong (or not). I'm guessing the vehicle is in a base coat of  SCC.2 brown and that it dates from a mid war period when using up G4 instead of  Nobel's Dark Tarmac No.4 was more common ( or so we might assume). Have you a date and place Bob, for this photo?

9. The rear end of the staff car is IMHO G3 and G4 but apart from RAF personnel hard to know if it's RAF

10. The Fordson Type 1301 I have seen on the web, but the Albion Ambulance behind the colours are 'different'

11 . The Commer Q15 head on is from the same film as the Fordson Roadless and Bowser above, as it almost certainly Green G3 base with G4 dark green camo. 

12. the AEC 6x6 Bowser. Either G3 and G4 too or more likely is it SCC.2 with G3 camo, which fits with the 1942-45 Lancaster years.

13. Is the Fordson N and WAAF towing a blockbuster another example of a Gloss Green and 'brown' wheels vehicle as in 4. above.

14.Another AEC 6x6 with SCC.2 base coat and Black, Dark Brown or even Green camo?

15. I cannot say much except the bowser appears to be camouflaged.

16. Thanks for the photos of the David Brown tractors. that with a yellow bonnet dates from late 1944.

So to recap thanks Bob for these attachments, and interestingly or perhaps embarrassingly, the photo of that Fordson 7V I saw some years ago in the 601 Sqn film is still 'missing' !

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Hi Guys.

4. Genuine colour, I have looked at this CAREFULLY unless the coloriser was in a totally different league to all those so far seen, there is so much evidence against colourising, little areas of grime, subtle differences in hue, in many nooks and crannies, even the trees, the buildings, deposits of beige, grime, in corners, locking j bolts areas with expected deposits, inner faces of front wheels, effect of dirt on tyres inner faces, no colouriser thinks that deep and then some !

7. Albion AM463 with Spitfire has Nobels Tarmac Green as disruptive camo (cab roof one area) over Khaki Green No3.

8. have I a date and place, will have to see if I can find where this came from, it was seen on a recent'ish TV prog.

 

BOBC1940

Edited by BOBC1940
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Hi Guys.

Essential reading for this thread, RAF VEHICLE AND GROUND EQUIPMENT COLOURS OF WW2 by Mike Starmer with extra notes by myself gleaned from Mike :-

Mike Starmer had written an article on the MAFVA website some time ago, here it is, along with Colourcoats paints carefully matched to an original paint chip chart of these colours, so acquiring the tinlets and painting out will reveal the colours these names refer to.  For Nobels Tarmac Green (Nobels is in fact a paint manufacturer so the colour is that less the name) for reasons below, suggested matches at the moment are Revell enamel 78 and Humbrol enamel 32 :-

 As for Nobels Tarmac Mike Starmer has yet to see an actual in the hand sample, an archives in Canada has such but wont take it to daylight to view, taking a photo of it would need a colour calibration card in the photo and a decent dSLR set to Adobe RGB which captures more colours than sRGB, a setting to be had on any dSLR and perhaps also more pocketable cameras.

I have acquired these tinlets and plan on painting them all out !

The colour text has come in from my word doc where it helped spot references to the same colours in the article !

R.A.F. GROUND VEHICLE COLOURS.

In AMO A364/37 [1937] a new colour was introduced for all R.A.F. ground vehicles, BS.33 R.A.F. Blue Grey.  It replaced all previous colours such as ‘khaki’ on UK based vehicles.  Ambulances overseas were to be white whilst all other vehicles in Iraq except ambulances were to be khaki.  An amendment in A100 5/38 states that in Iraq armoured cars, armed tenders and W/T tenders will be khaki too.  In 1939 A.M. issued instructions that all R.A.F. vehicles were to be disruptively painted.  No documents thus far confirm the colours used, but presumably those as the army.

Odd disjointed file notes from TNA have the following:-

28 March 1939;  R.A.F. have decided to use the same colours as the army in ME, but RE & Signals Board not yet decided on colour for Iraq, Palestine and ME.

6 February 1941.  Camouflaging of MT in Overseas Commands.  Colours specified in CWD Specifications are Dark Sand and Middle Stone.  The sample of painted lorry cover that we received… ‘was much darker than the earlier colour’.  This follows G.O.370 of 1939.

This situation remained officially till August 1941.   Nevertheless instructions had been issued in Britain during 1939 to disruptively paint transport.  Photographs of some R.A.F. vehicles in France during early 1940 and on some airfields in the South of England from June 1940 onwards show that disruptive painting on ground vehicles deployed on airfields within reach of enemy aircraft or observation.  No accurate colours are known for these vehicles but in France, British army colours may have been used but the possibility of French colours must be taken into account. 

A TNA file has a note dated 19 November 1940; ‘…camouflage paint has not hitherto been included in R.D.M.T. Specifications for M.T. vehicles for the R.A.F. and units have, we understand, obtained their own supplies by local purchase’.  Followed by ‘The canvas tilts of those vehicle leave the manufacturers dyed khaki and unpainted…’.  So there was authority to camouflage vehicles prior to the next known AMO.  In England, army colours is possible by local arrangement or a range of green, brown, black or grey building paints may have been used in random striped type designs similar to army applications. 

In June 1941 a signal N629/41 calls for camouflage of impressed vehicles.  No further documents have yet been found to clarify this signal regarding colours. 

From now on AMOs mirror War Office policy.  AMO A618/41 of 7 August orders R.A.F. vehicles to be a basic colour of Khaki Green No.3 with Nobels Dark Tarmac Green No.4 or alternatively Light Green No.5 as disrupters patterned as M.T.P.20 of 1939. 

August 1942, AMO A820/42; colours will now be Camouflage Green No.3 and paint PFU Dark Tarmac No.4.    Do not be baffled by the different colour names as will be explained later.  The camouflage style now is as M.T.P. 46/4A by then in general use by the War Office.  Since R.A.F. vehicle wastage is far less than the army then earlier colours and schemes tended to be in use for far longer before repainting to current standards took place, keep this in mind.  There is a coloured photograph of a F.A.A. David Brown tractor in Khaki Green No.3 towing a Blue Grey fuel trailer in 1943. 

December 1942: AMO A1397/42; a change of basic colour to Brown Special No.2 and Brown Dark (MT) No.1A to M.T.P. 46/4A.

September 1943: AMO A891/43; basic colour is still Brown Special No.2 but now with Black Matt S.C.C. No.14 application to M.T.P. 46/4A.   This remains the scheme until 1944.

(my note.. S.C.C means Standard Camouflage Colours, (1941-42 – Standard Camouflage Colours (S.C.C.s) from BS.987c come into use alongside, and then supplanted the greens and Dark Tarmac )

 

8 June 1944: AMO A519/44; changes the basic colour to ‘Olive Drab’ (my note this is NOT the same as USA olive drab) with Black Matt S.C.C. No.14 disrupter to M.T.P. 46/4A.  However a September AMO A/897 dispenses with the Black disrupter and vehicles will now be in the basic colour only.  Many R.A.F. vehicles not used on airfields such as on radar and signal sites carried no sort of disruptive painting, they remained the plain basic colour throughout their lives.  Those with the 2nd Tactical Air Forces MT service commando columns were generally in full camouflage patterning.

This scheme remains until April 1946 with AMO A302/46, when a reversion to pre-war colours and finishes was introduced, the colours both now full gloss BS.33 R.A.F. Blue Grey with gloss Black wings (mudguards) and valences. 

As before there was a large overlap of schemes through 1943-50.  There are photographs of R.A.F. and army vehicles in use in Germany during the Berlin airlift of 1948-49 still in 1943 type camouflage colours and scheme.   

As in all matters within the services each used its own stores reference numbers to identify and order every item required, including paint.  The R.A.F. had its own terminology for the same army colours hence the terms used in AMOs.

Camouflage Green No.3 is the same colour as Khaki Green No.3.
Khaki Green No.3 is the same name and colour for both services. (Sovereign Colourcoats ARB03 – Khaki Green 3 £2.50 14ml model paint colour matched to original chart )

Nobels Dark Tarmac No.4 is the same name and colour  again. (my note..can’t be Khaki Green No3 as it was a contrasting disrupter over that so ???)

Light Green No.5 is the same name and colour again. (my note..as what ?)

Paint PFU Dark Tarmac No.4 is the same colour as Nobels Dark Tarmac No.4

PFU means Prepared For Use. Which means that nothing needs to be added to the liquid at all, simply stir thoroughly and use.  This term was used to differentiate between paint types as it was common practice at the time to add proportions of concentrate pigment to a base colour in order to achieve a specific colour matched to a company catalogue.     

Brown Special No.2 is the same colour as S.C.C. 2 (brown) (Sovereign Colourcoats ARB05 Dark Earth (BS987C S.C.C No.2 )  £2.50 14ml model paint colour matched to original chart )

 

Brown Dark (MT) No.1A is the same colour as S.C.C.1A (dark brown). (Sovereign Colourcoats ARB15 Very Dark Brown (BS987C SCC No 1A  £2.50 14ml model paint colour matched to original chart )

Black Matt S.C.C. No.14, the same as S.C.C. 14 (blue-black). (Sovereign Colourcoats ARB16 Blue Black disruptive (BS987C SCC No 14  £2.50 14ml model paint colour matched to original chart )

Olive Drab is the same colour as S.C.C.15 Olive DrabMake no mistake; this colour is NOT a match for the American colour of that name. (Sovereign Colourcoats ARB19 - Olive Drab (BS987C S.C.C No.15 (revised) )  £2.50 14ml model paint colour matched to original chart )  

 

Analysing this I have given ABCD to paints as follows:-

A.      PFU Dark Tarmac No.4

B.      Nobels Dark Tarmac No.4

C.     army's  'Dark Green No.4'

D.    RAF Nobel Tarmac Green 4 (stores 33A/548) 

A & B are basically black.  Humbrol 32 dark grey is close, this has a slight green tinge.  C & D are both the same dark green.  

Mike says A = B  and C=D  and that AB =/= CD (or in english AB does not match to CD)

Canadian sample is AB.

 

The Staff car parked nose to building is CorD, Dark Green. (actual text from Mike).

 

Hendon archives have this (source Mike Starmer)

A.618/41 on vehicles Khaki Green No.3 with Nobels Tarmac Green 4 (stores 33A/548) or Light Green 5:   [No stores numbers are included for KG3 or Lt.Green.]

 

A.820/42  on vehicles paint, camouflage , green, (stores 33A/527) basic with paint, PFU, dark, tarmac, No.4 (stores 33A/548). 

Note 4. Distemper, tarmac, green, (stores 33A/528) is declared obsolete but must be used until stocks are exhausted.

 

The next one is about the change of colours to the MTP.46 /4A scheme using SCC.2 brown and SCC.1A dark brown, but has this note.

A.1397 Item 4.  Paint, camouflage, green, No.3 (stores 33A/527) and distemper, tarmac, green, No.4 (stores 33A/528, will continue to be issued and used until present stocks are exhausted.

 

From these it seems that the army's Dark Green No.4 is the RAF Nobel Tarmac Green 4 (stores 33A/548)  thus this and Dark Tarmac No.4 are different colours.

The army Khaki Green No.3 (G3) is RAF 'Paint, camouflage , green, No.3 (stores 33A/527) '.

The distemper 33A/528 , is I think, the bituminous emulsion version for canvas only of Nobel Tarmac Green 4 (stores 33A/548)  Enamel paint rotted canvas.

.......

so there we have it, takes some getting the head around !

 

Really needs a pictorial with the actual colours and all this needing assimilating into a definitive text.

 

Cheers

 

BOBC1940

Edited by BOBC1940
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Dear Bob,

Its great to have you on board so to speak with Ted and Matchfuze etc as RAF Vehicle Colour Specialists. I correspond with Mike Starmer too and of course I am familiar with his MAFVA info.

One point - I'm reliably informed that Nobel's Tarmac (Dark) Green No.4 is not the same as Nobel's Dark Tarmac No 4, with the later being the colour of tarmac. That is unless there is confusion with (Dark) Green No.4 in having 'Tarmac' in its name. Ted Angus knows.

Keep up the good work !

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1 hour ago, LarryH57 said:

4. Regarding the WAAAF on the Fordson N I have posted this on HMVF before.  I did wonder if this was a colourised photo. Assuming it isn't I have been told on here that it may be a hurriedly purchased civi tractor that were switched from being orange and delivered in gloss green. It still has the Fordson lettering picked out in red - orange. As for the wheels ???

I'm still convinced that this photo is colourized, but not questioning whether the others are original colour or colourized. 

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A couple of corrections to Mike Starmer's notes- I have all the AMOs mentioned plus the TNA notes.  The Hendon Archive notes relate to AMOs  .

AMO 364 /37  states   (1)  overseas ambos to white. (2)  all vehicles Iraq to Khaki. then an  amendment to include (3) armoured cars, Armed tenders and w/t tenders with armoured cars  to be Khaki-  this will mean globally as the original AMO had already  said all vehicles in Iraq-   at this time we had Armoured Car Companies wandering over much of the middle East.

JUNE 1941    N629/41 is not a signal its an AMO- there were several series of AMOs  those prefixed A were Admin  those prefixed N are temporary . 

 

 It may well be the info we cannot find pre dating June 1941 is hidden in the N series of AMOs   or was simply and more swiftly promulgated by Telex or by the priority letter delivery service. AMOs were ultimately superseded by DCIs ( Defence Council Instructions), these often took 2 to 3 months between initial composition , approval, printing , and global distribution to Stations then to Squadrons, Flights and Sections- so I would think in WW2 it would be a similar period.  

I am still after many years scratching my head over dark green , nobels dark tarmac green and dark tarmac, but I am swaying towards   Nobels dark tarmac green No 4 being Army No 4. 

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9 minutes ago, LarryH57 said:

So are you saying Ted that the Nobel s colours are the same after all, or the name is wrong. Surely one is a dark green  and the other is grey tarmac?

I am saying  I am thinking that nobels tarmac dark green is the same as army green number 4. 

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Hi,

Quote

I am saying  I am thinking that nobels tarmac dark green is the same as army green number 4. 

my data above says:-

A.      PFU Dark Tarmac No.4

B.      Nobels Dark Tarmac No.4

C.     army's  'Dark Green No.4'

D.    RAF Nobel Tarmac Green 4 (stores 33A/548) 

 

So is your Nobels Tarmac Dark Green  the colour D ?

as I dont see that particular word string of 'nobels tarmac dark green' in A B C or D. and these four have been through the Mike Starmer vetting process 🙂

If it is D then that fits with Mike Starmer who says A=B and C=D

Trouble is we have the words Nobel Dark Tarmac Green No.4 and they can be mixed and matched if not careful so forming another variation in words only !

 

Cheers

BOBC1940

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Somewhere I have a shot of an Albion Ambo at I think Odiham, which appeared to have Light Earth with light green cam,   I read somewhere RAE did a trial using these colours , so possibly the Commer with the green roof and the tiny shot of the Albion bowser  are vehicles left over from the trial ???  

The attached might be of interest !

Polish celebration.jpg

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On 9/4/2021 at 11:31 AM, ted angus said:

Somewhere I have a shot of an Albion Ambo at I think Odiham, which appeared to have Light Earth with light green cam,   I read somewhere RAE did a trial using these colours , so possibly the Commer with the green roof and the tiny shot of the Albion bowser  are vehicles left over from the trial ???  

The attached might be of interest !

 

That really is a lovely photo of Polish airmen and their girls.  Do you know any more details about it?  I was very privileged, some years ago, to have quite a bit to do with Polish ex-servicemen who fought with the British in the west.  I was able to host Gen Slawek Skalski at my home following his last Remembrance Service in 2003 - he died in the following November.  This from Wikipedia: 

Skalski was the top Polish fighter ace of the war and chronologically the first Allied fighter ace of the war, credited, according to the Bajan's list, with 18 11/12 victories and two probable. Some sources, including Skalski himself, give a number of 22 11/12 victories.

"He returned to Poland after the war but was imprisoned by the communist authorities under the pretext that he was a spy for Great Britain. While in arrest he was tortured and then, in a show trial, sentenced to death on April 7, 1950. Skalski refused to ask for clemency but after his mother's intervention with the president of communist Poland, Boleslaw Bierut his sentence was commuted to life imprisonment. He remained in prison until 1956 when a court overturned the previous verdict. After the "Polish October" and subsequent liberalization and end of Stalinist terror, he was rehabilitated and rejoined the Polish armed forces. In 1972 he was moved to inactive service and in 1988, on the cusp of fall of communism in Poland he was promoted to the rank of brigadier general."

It gives you an impression of how badly treated were so many Poles who returned to their homeland after 1945 if they had been in the Polish Army fighting in the West and wearing the crowned eagle capbadge.  The only Polish army recognised by the Soviets (and of course, the international community once the Lublin government was recognised) was the one which was formed in the USSR and which went on to fight under Gen Berling as the 1st Polish Army and which became the Polish People's Army after the war.  Not until the fall of communism did the veterans from the west have their moment in the sun - alas, all too short-lived with few now still alive.

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7 hours ago, 10FM68 said:

That really is a lovely photo of Polish airmen and their girls.  Do you know any more details about it?  I was very privileged, some years ago, to have quite a bit to do with Polish ex-servicemen who fought with the British in the west.  I was able to host Gen Slawek Skalski at my home following his last Remembrance Service in 2003 - he died in the following November.  This from Wikipedia: 

Skalski was the top Polish fighter ace of the war and chronologically the first Allied fighter ace of the war, credited, according to the Bajan's list, with 18 11/12 victories and two probable. Some sources, including Skalski himself, give a number of 22 11/12 victories.

"He returned to Poland after the war but was imprisoned by the communist authorities under the pretext that he was a spy for Great Britain. While in arrest he was tortured and then, in a show trial, sentenced to death on April 7, 1950. Skalski refused to ask for clemency but after his mother's intervention with the president of communist Poland, Boleslaw Bierut his sentence was commuted to life imprisonment. He remained in prison until 1956 when a court overturned the previous verdict. After the "Polish October" and subsequent liberalization and end of Stalinist terror, he was rehabilitated and rejoined the Polish armed forces. In 1972 he was moved to inactive service and in 1988, on the cusp of fall of communism in Poland he was promoted to the rank of brigadier general."

It gives you an impression of how badly treated were so many Poles who returned to their homeland after 1945 if they had been in the Polish Army fighting in the West and wearing the crowned eagle capbadge.  The only Polish army recognised by the Soviets (and of course, the international community once the Lublin government was recognised) was the one which was formed in the USSR and which went on to fight under Gen Berling as the 1st Polish Army and which became the Polish People's Army after the war.  Not until the fall of communism did the veterans from the west have their moment in the sun - alas, all too short-lived with few now still alive.

Afraid I didn't note the location of date, but there were only 4 polish fighters squadrons.     What I feel was a great injustice was the exclusion of any polish participation in the 1946 victory parade .

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5 minutes ago, ted angus said:

Afraid I didn't note the location of date, but there were only 4 polish fighters squadrons.     What I feel was a great injustice was the exclusion of any polish participation in the 1946 victory parade .

So why were they excluded?

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14 minutes ago, Rootes75 said:

So why were they excluded?

It's all a bit complicated. By the time of the victory parade in 1946, HMG had recognised the Provisional Polish government being established in Lublin under communist auspices. That was an inevitability given realpolitik. At that time it was still hoped that this government would ensure that non communist parties would get to play in Polish politics so that the London based Polish Government in Exile parties would have a role. Naive perhaps, but that was still the hope. HMG sent an invitation to Lublin inviting them to send a contingent, but they prevaricated. Late in the day the Polish pilots who fought with the RAF were invited to march with the RAF, but they refused because the Polish army and naval elements weren't invited as well.  Meanwhile the Lublin government gave the excuse of the expected presence of the pilots with the RAF to turn down their invitation.  So none went and, as it turned out, the Lublin Poles weren't invited to the Moscow parade either. All very sad, but such was Europe in those days.  This is basically what happened but, as Imsaid, it was all a bit complicated and no one comes out of it very well. Suffice to say, the bravery and tenacity of the fighting Poles was exemplary, particularly as it became clear towards the end of the war that those in the West would be fighting for a government no longer recognised by the Western allies!  This led to the formation of the Polish Resettlement Corps in the British Army. But that is another story.

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1 hour ago, ted angus said:

Afraid I didn't note the location of date, but there were only 4 polish fighters squadrons.    

It does depend on the period and, given the presence of a US-built vehicle in the picture, this is probably later in the war than the Battle of Britain (I'm not sufficiently up on my Spitfires to recognise the mark!)  But, while 302 and 303 were certainly the first fighter squadrons, 306, 307, 308, 309, 315, 316, 317 and 318 at various times were fighter squadrons (or night fighter, fighter/recce) - though not necessarily equipped with Spitfires.

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24 minutes ago, 10FM68 said:

It does depend on the period and, given the presence of a US-built vehicle in the picture, this is probably later in the war than the Battle of Britain (I'm not sufficiently up on my Spitfires to recognise the mark!)  But, while 302 and 303 were certainly the first fighter squadrons, 306, 307, 308, 309, 315, 316, 317 and 318 at various times were fighter squadrons (or night fighter, fighter/recce) - though not necessarily equipped with Spitfires.

I think only 302' ,303, 308 and 315 with spits.  I am sure the caption stated the girls were all polish airwomen and it was a national celebration day.

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