question RAF Blue in WW2- Fact or Fiction

[LarryH57]

Over the last 30 years I have seen a fair number of WW2 MV's painted in RAF blue and I have often wondered how accurate they are in that colour.

 

When you study war time photos of the RAF in the UK you will see that from very early in the war RAF vehicles from staff cars to fuel bowsers were painted in disruptive camo that I believe was green & brown and that as the war progressed colours changed to match the Army with black disruptive paint over brown (?) and later mickey mouse type camouflage.

 

I have not found a photo of RAF blue & yellow cab roof either in WW2 though I did see a colour photo of an all yellow Beaverette used as crash rescue on a Bomber Command airfield circa 1944 (for use by firemen in asbestos suits to get in close)

 

So why is it that MV owners paint their 1942-45 era RAF vehicles blue and why for that matter does the film industry do the same! Is getting an award more preferable than accuracy?

 

Finally can anyone say for sure when RAF blue was first used-1918? And when did it make a comeback after WW2?

[gritineye]

Thanks Richard, I might get round to finishing all the odd bits in the cab and painting it soon.....................

[T corbin]

THe QL refueller at Duxford was restored in 1975 in post war colours .I Got the information from Humble paints they have all cross references of BS to modern then tell you wot No tin to get . Then take it to the paint shop and have some made This also worked with the WOT 1 & the GTBs now the INTERNATIONAL . ( Have not got anythink painted OD ) T CORBIN

[ruxy]

Sound research followed by expert pontification is great stuff , modellers for years have found this more important than those into 1:1

It is a fact that military museums are lacking in the most important artifacts as sound evidence (empty or full paint cans) - how I wish I had retained a few.

 

I do have a few of what will be early IRR NATO Green cans , however this is my earliest and IMHO it is what was used immediately prior, the date was probably very clear until I wiped the dust off with a damp J cloth. I recon earlyish 1970's - there can't be many 40 year old mil. paint cans around..

 

[woa2]

ps our local big B & Q has a sign saying we can mix and BS or RAL (German standard ) colour can they hell !!

regards TED

 

I have tried B&Q and got the same response. I wanted Green and it came out Brown!!!!!

[Adrian Barrell]

Sound research followed by expert pontification is great stuff , modellers for years have found this more important than those into 1:1

It is a fact that military museums are lacking in the most important artifacts as sound evidence (empty or full paint cans) - how I wish I had retained a few.

 

I do have a few of what will be early IRR NATO Green cans , however this is my earliest and IMHO it is what was used immediately prior, the date was probably very clear until I wiped the dust off with a damp J cloth. I recon earlyish 1970's - there can't be many 40 year old mil. paint cans around..

 

 

 

I always thought OD 298 was superceded by Deep Bronze Green which was then replaced by Nato Green. I wonder what was being painted OD post-war and when until.

Edited January 1, 2011 by Adrian Barrell

[ruxy]

The clue is the NATO SC code at top of the label - and what date NATO numbers were established ..

[T corbin]

WOT 3 Tructor

I have been trying to find the correct colour to repaint it . Very carefully rubbed down paint & found .Red oxide first . Raf blue second . Mat green third . back to Raf blue . More different paints after . I Now have the choice of wot colour to paint it But do not know the year of manufacture Any help Chassis No BB 18 / 7037774 . If it is early 1940 or 1939 it could be in RAF blue ???? T CORBIN

[diver99]

Using the beauty of cut and paste, this is from the Maple Leaf forum and missing lynx;

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47210/thread/1050505298/RAF+vehicle+colours+and+published+references

These are notes from (1983) copy of wheels of the RAF:

 

Up to 30s, Army Khaki

 

30-1940 (Battle of Britain) - RAF Blue/grey

 

1940 (Battle of Britain) - disruptive pattern applied to MT based in SE

England similar to that of aircraft, but using industrial camouflage paint

intended for buildings (he doesn't mention shades)

 

August 1941 - standard scheme for RAF vehicles introduced of overall khaki

green no3 with diruptive scheme of Nobel's tarmac green no 4 (Same scheme

applied to Army vehicles)

 

Also, anti- gas patches were applied to the offside mudguard, yellow

square

until 1941, brown blotch after this. After '43 paint in general had

anti-gas

properties

 

September 1943 - new scheme of MT brown special and Matt Black (again,

same as

Army) (Mickey Mouse pattern)

 

For the invasion of Europe, olive drab replaced the brown

 

Late 44 - Olive drab overall (vehicles to be repainted when neccessary)

 

This was the main pattern, but as always there are exceptions:

 

Overseas

 

BEF1939-40

 

Many vehicles painted in disruptive scheme of Khaki green in the field

 

Western Desert

 

Standard scheme was middle stone, sometime with dark earth in patches

 

2 TAF

 

Home markings, but with the white star

 

Far East

 

Standard Blue-grey until Burma campaign, when a general change to Olive

drab

[George McKenzie]

This 1942 tractor was brought to Canada after the war from the UK where it worked with the bombers .I have just painted it the original color .Gray blue George

[Lwt Big Cheese]

I know what the thread title says, but when did they stop painting stuff blue/grey?

 

Or rather when was the order. There was still loads of stuff not green when I joined in '76.

[ted angus]

I know what the thread title says, but when did they stop painting stuff blue/grey?

 

Or rather when was the order. There was still loads of stuff not green when I joined in '76.

 

The 1974 move to IRR Matt green initially only applied to Strike Command and RAF G

Hence still some MT in RAF Blue Grey when you joined up.

 

TED

[ted angus]

Using the beauty of cut and paste, this is from the Maple Leaf forum and missing lynx;

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47210/thread/1050505298/RAF+vehicle+colours+and+published+references

These are notes from (1983) copy of wheels of the RAF:

 

Up to 30s, Army Khaki

 

30-1940 (Battle of Britain) - RAF Blue/grey

 

1940 (Battle of Britain) - disruptive pattern applied to MT based in SE

England similar to that of aircraft, but using industrial camouflage paint

intended for buildings (he doesn't mention shades)

 

August 1941 - standard scheme for RAF vehicles introduced of overall khaki

green no3 with diruptive scheme of Nobel's tarmac green no 4 (Same scheme

applied to Army vehicles)

 

Also, anti- gas patches were applied to the offside mudguard, yellow

square

until 1941, brown blotch after this. After '43 paint in general had

anti-gas

properties

 

September 1943 - new scheme of MT brown special and Matt Black (again,

same as

Army) (Mickey Mouse pattern)

 

For the invasion of Europe, olive drab replaced the brown

 

Late 44 - Olive drab overall (vehicles to be repainted when neccessary)

 

This was the main pattern, but as always there are exceptions:

 

Overseas

 

BEF1939-40

 

Many vehicles painted in disruptive scheme of Khaki green in the field

 

Western Desert

 

Standard scheme was middle stone, sometime with dark earth in patches

 

2 TAF

 

Home markings, but with the white star

 

Far East

 

Standard Blue-grey until Burma campaign, when a general change to Olive

drab

 

 

Afraid more research from period documents and files at both Hendon & Kew shows much of the above is incorrect.

A few examples ::

Building and aircraft paints were not suitable for vehicles, files note Stations and Units had been purchasing their own supplies of paint for vehicles following the colours in use by the Army. Photo evidence shows Majority of vehicles of the Air Component Field Force that went to France in 1939 was camo the same as the Army.

Middle east was Middle Stone and dark sand later Lt stone Only.

From Files at Kew re air recognition and period photos -few RAF vehicles carried the white star. The RAF invasion of Europe air recognition mark was the oversize roundal on the top and sides.

Before SCC2 Brown and SCC14 black there was the SCC2 Brown and SCC1A dark brown scheme.

 

TED

[LarryH57]

Ted,

 

Did you by chance see the recent programme on TV called 'Dig 1940' concerning the Battle of Britain? The programme showed clips from a very rare 'home movie' in colour, by W Rhodes Moorhouse showing 601 Sqn Hawker Hurricanes in the BoB. But as the film panned across a group of pilots in the background was an RAF truck in green and brown camo - which looked the same coulors used on the Hurricanes - not that I'm claiming it was the same paint.

 

As with so many of these programmes, they spare more air time filming people today taking about the past rather than showing the complete home movie! Unless they are interviewing a veteran, I suggest they get rid of the 'talking heads' and have movie film of the period with a voice only commentary.

Edited January 22, 2011 by LarryH57

[LarryH57]

By the way - did anyone keep a recording of Dig 1940 as it would be great if a still from the war time home movie could be copied on to this thread

[ted angus]

Ted,

 

Did you by chance see the recent programme on TV called 'Dig 1940' concerning the Battle of Britain? The programme showed clips from a very rare 'home movie' in colour, by W Rhodes Moorhouse showing 601 Sqn Hawker Hurricanes in the BoB. But as the film panned across a group of pilots in the background was an RAF truck in green and brown camo - which looked the same coulors used on the Hurricanes - not that I'm claiming it was the same paint.

 

As with so many of these programmes, they spare more air time filming people today taking about the past rather than showing the complete home movie! Unless they are interviewing a veteran, I suggest they get rid of the 'talking heads' and have movie film of the period with a voice only commentary.

 

Afraid I missed it i am not a tv fan so unless I get advance warning I normally miss out on these little gems.

At the time of the BoB the Army in UK were using Khaki Green No 3 and either a light or dark green as the second colour, now we know fron Kew documents that the RAF was following The army's lead in this subject. I have some chips of Khaki Green No 3 (KG) and the greens, in some good light conditions KG looks almost brown /earthy ; the light green was just slightly lighter than the Air Ministry/Min of aircraft Production Standard Dark Green. So the answer could be it was in KG No 3 and the Light green No G5.

To give you an idea of KG attached are 2 shots of a vehicle finished in Khaki Green No 3 and black- I think you might agree just how brown or earthy the KG looks especially in the right hand shot?/

It could be the answer ??

 

TED

Edited January 23, 2011 by ted angus

[diver99]

Afraid more research from period documents and files at both Hendon & Kew shows much of the above is incorrect.

A few examples ::

Building and aircraft paints were not suitable for vehicles, files note Stations and Units had been purchasing their own supplies of paint for vehicles following the colours in use by the Army. Photo evidence shows Majority of vehicles of the Air Component Field Force that went to France in 1939 was camo the same as the Army.

Middle east was Middle Stone and dark sand later Lt stone Only.

From Files at Kew re air recognition and period photos -few RAF vehicles carried the white star. The RAF invasion of Europe air recognition mark was the oversize roundal on the top and sides.

Before SCC2 Brown and SCC14 black there was the SCC2 Brown and SCC1A dark brown scheme.

 

TED

Thats a shame, i was under the impression that wheels of the RAF was a good book, perhaps ok except for the paint schemes? Needs an update?

[diver99]

There is the colour film, Night Bombers ~~ RAF Hemswell 1943. Early parts of the film have vehicles. Bits can be seen on you tube, but is available on dvd.

[ted angus]

There is the colour film, Night Bombers ~~ RAF Hemswell 1943. Early parts of the film have vehicles. Bits can be seen on you tube, but is available on dvd.

 

There was a big write up on this film on another forum. It is now clear the film was made over the winter of 1944/5 It seems even the details of the mission they were departing on was given.

 

TED

Edited January 24, 2011 by ted angus

[ted angus]

Thats a shame, i was under the impression that wheels of the RAF was a good book, perhaps ok except for the paint schemes? Needs an update?

 

I think for the time it was written it is a great book and in fact remains the only one on the subject.

In those days the files at Hendon were considered to be the ultimate on the subject, but in recent years access to Kew has given a much broader view of the subject. When using AMOs as a resource its no good looking at individual ones in isolation, a better interpretation of its contents can be gleaned by at least viewing the one it succeeded and the one that then succeeded it. Also many of the AMOs have had amendments carried out to them; either handwritten or paste on strips of replacement text; it needs to be viewed in its unmolested state and then compared with its amended state. Often because the paste on amendment strips cannot be lifted it is impossible to get a truely accurate original version.

The other thing I found was Hendon's copy of AP 3090 MT regs dated sept 1944 which has all the marking regs, tables of bridges classes, max speeds, carrying capacities and a host of other useful info was a copy that had been amended many times over several years and consequently does not give a clear picture of the setup in 1944-- whereas the KEW copy is mint .

regards TED

Edited January 24, 2011 by ted angus
spelling

[ted angus]

By the way - did anyone keep a recording of Dig 1940 as it would be great if a still from the war time home movie could be copied on to this thread

 

By chance saw part of Ep 2 tonight and I saw the truck being used to transport pilots. Look like a small Bedford A still would be great but I think it was KG No 3 and the light green I mentioned

 

TED

[T corbin]

It is fact that RAF Vehicles where BLUE in WW11 but only a short time ( mid 40 )??? The WOT 3 first coat is over the red oxide is T CORBIN

[russell sprout]

So does anyone know that the modern paint code of Khaki Green No 3 is?

[LarryH57]

I don't think anyone would doubt that RAF blue was still being used in 1940 even on new vehicles for the RAF, as factories often continued until told otherwise what ever the wartime situation. However the main point of this post was to get an idea of the colour schemes used from 1939 to 1945, and the info posted here from Ted and others confirms what I always thought, that RAF blue on RAF vehicles as seen in every war film or TV series was fiction - for most of the war.

[ted angus]

I don't think anyone would doubt that RAF blue was still being used in 1940 even on new vehicles for the RAF, as factories often continued until told otherwise what ever the wartime situation. However the main point of this post was to get an idea of the colour schemes used from 1939 to 1945, and the info posted here from Ted and others confirms what I always thought, that RAF blue on RAF vehicles as seen in every war film or TV series was fiction - for most of the war.

 

Yes I second all that motion !!

 

RUSSELL KG No 3 was never included in any British Standard. However A chap called Mike Starmer has spent years researching these colours and from several souces obtained original items finished in KG No 3 ; His research was primarily for the model world. A company called White Ensign Models have produced the colour in their British armour range it is ARB 03 in their Briish amour range.

So if I wanted to reproduce the colour life size I would invest in a tin of ARB03 airbrush it onto a piece of flat material which has been primed with Halfords grey primer (aerosol) . then take it to a motor factor/auto paint dealer and get it scanned with their magic machine. There may already be a restoration type paint dealer doing the colour ????? By the way the colour is brownish so don't be expecting a really green colour !

The front vehicle in the attached is in KG No 3.

TED

Edited February 15, 2011 by ted angus

[Sean N]

...I would invest in a tin of ARB03 airbrush it onto a piece of flat material which has been primed with Halfords grey primer (aerosol) . then take it to a motor factor/auto paint dealer and get it scanned with their magic machine...TED

 

Except maybe you couldn't even do that - isn't it the case that colours always look darker on smaller surfaces, so model paints tend to be lighter than the real world equivalents??