question RAF Blue in WW2- Fact or Fiction

[LarryH57]

Over the last 30 years I have seen a fair number of WW2 MV's painted in RAF blue and I have often wondered how accurate they are in that colour.

 

When you study war time photos of the RAF in the UK you will see that from very early in the war RAF vehicles from staff cars to fuel bowsers were painted in disruptive camo that I believe was green & brown and that as the war progressed colours changed to match the Army with black disruptive paint over brown (?) and later mickey mouse type camouflage.

 

I have not found a photo of RAF blue & yellow cab roof either in WW2 though I did see a colour photo of an all yellow Beaverette used as crash rescue on a Bomber Command airfield circa 1944 (for use by firemen in asbestos suits to get in close)

 

So why is it that MV owners paint their 1942-45 era RAF vehicles blue and why for that matter does the film industry do the same! Is getting an award more preferable than accuracy?

 

Finally can anyone say for sure when RAF blue was first used-1918? And when did it make a comeback after WW2?

[Guest catweazle (Banned Member)]

Hi.not a lot of help but interesting.The navy called RAF personell CRAB FATS or CRABS.because crab fat is apperently blue grey in colour.Also only the wealthy could afford the new blue uniform,the material had just become available in large quantities due to the Russian revolution puting that country out of the war.This meant Russian officers uniforms manufactured in Britain had lost the market.CW.

[Tony B]

RAF and Crabs is alleged to have come about because the blue of the unifrom supplied to the Original RFC/RAF was the same coulour as the ointment used to treat an embarrasing infestation. By the same token the Metropolitian Police Flying Squad was so named as there first vehicles were ex RAF and still in RAF blue.

[M.Rimmer]

Interesting question but I'm afraid I'm not 100% on the answer,although I too have yet to see a WW2 photo of blue RAF vehicles.

[ted angus]

Over the last 30 years I have seen a fair number of WW2 MV's painted in RAF blue and I have often wondered how accurate they are in that colour.

 

When you study war time photos of the RAF in the UK you will see that from very early in the war RAF vehicles from staff cars to fuel bowsers were painted in disruptive camo that I believe was green & brown and that as the war progressed colours changed to match the Army with black disruptive paint over brown (?) and later mickey mouse type camouflage.

 

I have not found a photo of RAF blue & yellow cab roof either in WW2 though I did see a colour photo of an all yellow Beaverette used as crash rescue on a Bomber Command airfield circa 1944 (for use by firemen in asbestos suits to get in close)

 

So why is it that MV owners paint their 1942-45 era RAF vehicles blue and why for that matter does the film industry do the same! Is getting an award more preferable than accuracy?

 

Finally can anyone say for sure when RAF blue was first used-1918? And when did it make a comeback after WW2?

 

 

 

RAF Blue /Grey BS 381c tint 33 (later renumbered tint633) was still the official colour as we went to war in sept 1939. Units moving to France and those in the South East of England were instructed to undertake tone-down and to this end camoflague paints from the range being used to cam buildings were employed as were colours from the aircraft paint range.

Air Ministry order A.618 dated 7 aug 1941 brought the RAF into line with the Army as regards types of paint and shades to be used from that date until the end of hostilities.

There is photographic evidence that new vehicles delivered before this date were actually delivered in the colour(s) current to the Army.

In April 1946 the RAF reverted to RAF Blue /Grey semi gloss with black wings and wheel rims. In 1948 this was amended to all over RAF Blue/Grey.

Later in 1954 Lt Stone was introduced in the near & middle East, whilst vehicles in North West Europe were to be finished in Deep Bronze Green Gloss to BS 381c tint 224 which was the post WW2 colour of the British Army.

I have a colour film taken at RAF Hemswell during the winter of 1943/44 by the Station Commander. Attached is a still captured from the film; The Thorneycroft Amazon crane appears to be Khaki Green No 3 as the base colour with Dark Tarmac No 4 as the disruptive colour. Note the yellow upper surface on the jib. Many of the tractors shown in the film have yellow bonnets, there is a view of the black & white chequed runwat ATC caravan; its towing vehicle coupled to it was a Morris light recce car minus its turret colour all over yellow ! Hope this helps' I have recently purchased Mike Starmers booklet on British Army cam colours for UK and N W europe it includes colour chips. For the modellers White Ensign models now have a wide range of authentic WW2 military colours. Just do a Google and you will get their site and find their on line catalogue.

[LarryH57]

Thanks for your reply - most interesting.

 

So get your Army paints out if you have a WW2 RAF vehicle!

[No Signals]

Good stuff from Ted. A couple of points to add to his. The move away from the pre-war blue /grey came about from the Battle of Britain. It was recognised that whilst the aircraft on the ground were reasonably well camouflged, any attending vehicles tended to stand out and so drew fire. From '44 all RAF vehicles came off the production line in olive drab, as per the army, and did not have Mickey Mouse. 2nd Tactical Airforce went in to Europe with all over o/d. Photos from the time also show the most striking large roundels applied to them. Afraid of 'friendly fire' from the US maybe? AMO's also stated that vehicles were not to be painted the 'new' colours for the sake of it, just when routine repainting was required. This explains the range of schemes which can be seen on any one base at any one time.

So, vehicles in the BoB film (and others) shown in blue /grey technically could be correct, unless of course they are later pattern vehicles but that is a different point eh!?

[ted angus]

I am inclined to say most 2TAF vehicles were in SCC 2 when they embarked. units earmarked for 2TAF commenced training for their mobile/tactical role mid 1943. At this time they received their establishment of MT. Bear in mind prior to this the average Sqn had very few vehicles of its own as they were static. Once declared a 2TAF assett everything including ammo, bombs, rockets, canned fuel, food, water spares , tools , tentage , tent furniture, cooking gear, even several trucks carrying straw for the palliasse ! had to be moveable using the sqns own MT.

So following the time line ; on formation of the groups etc for 2TAF and their nominated sqns etc becoming tactical, vehicles were coming off the production line in SCC 2 ( you are no doubt aware it officially didn't have a name- but was a dark brown not too dissimilar to OD and is commonly but incorrectly called Dark Earth-yet is very different from the Dark Earth on RAF aircraft).

The ACI/AMO promulgating the intro of OD was not until April 1944 with the paint being avalible on a "repaint only as necesary allocation" from May. So it is highly unlikely many of the vehicles allocated in mid 43 would or even could, have been repainted into OD by D Day. ACI 553 prohibited units whose vehicles were SCC2 from drawing OD paint.

 

The attached photo of the QLs with an Austin K6 in the background was taken mid 1943 , it is 401 Sqn doing a tactical move to a new base. The QLs appear to be a single colour but have Mickey Mouse ear tilts !!

The second picture is 146 Wing on the move in France not too long after D Day - again it appears a single colour but again 2 colours on the tilts; This shot is a good illustration of the large roundel you mention.

For the first 6 years of my service many of my SNCOs and WO s had served through at least part of WW2 (one chap spent the war in Changi prison !) I was always pumping them for info as I was making models of RAF vehicles then.

Mike Starmer has done some outstanding research, from his conclusions, White Ensign Models have produced khaki Green No 3 and comparing a sample of this with the photo I previously posted of the Thornycroft Amazon crane in Khaki Green no 3; is testiment to the accuracy of his research.

Much has been published about RAF vehicle colours, but as time passes it is most apparent that much of the information in many publications is nothing more than badly researched assumptions. Hopefully through sharing info on forums such as this we can get much nearer the truth.

Although now out of the question I would love a week at Hendon museum solely researching markings and colours.

Regards TED

[gritineye]

If I have read all this correctly, this 1950s Scammell would never have been this colour in service? Pity cause I quite like it.

[Richard Farrant]

If I have read all this correctly, this 1950s Scammell would never have been this colour in service? Pity cause I quite like it.

 

The RAF reverted to this colour postwar, so it is correct.

Whilst restoring a RAF contract Humber staff car of 1944/45 build, it was found to be originally painted Olive Drab, it had subsequently been overpainted in RAF Blue Grey and demobbed about 1951.

 

One for Ted here, do you have any records of contracts for Humbers to the RAF and their RAF serial numbers?

[gritineye]

The RAF reverted to this colour postwar, so it is correct.

 

Phew! I'm pleased about that, thanks Richard, when I first saw My Explorer the IRR green had faded so much I thought it was an RAF one, I was disappointed that I couldn't justify painting it blue!

[ted angus]

April 1946 the RAF reverted to RAF blue/grey big sigh of relief !!

All the RAF vehicles in the june 1946 victory parade were in RAF Blue grey with black wings.

however in 1954 another change came along vehicles in north West Europe (2TAF area )went to GLOSS Deep Bronze green about 5 years later back to Raf blue /grey. then in 1974 both UK & north west Europe changed to the dreaded Matt IRR green . Currently its gloss green to BS 381c tint 641.

 

Richard I dread to think how many phone calls I made especially once I got my feet in the door at certain places as to where the pre 1949 registration records were . The reply was always if you find out please let us know!

Regarding contracts again can't help, my research has mainly been focussed towards model making, markings, colours, who used what and why .

regards TED

[No Signals]

So following the time line ; on formation of the groups etc for 2TAF and their nominated sqns etc becoming tactical, vehicles were coming off the production line in SCC 2 ( you are no doubt aware it officially didn't have a name- but was a dark brown not too dissimilar to OD and is commonly but incorrectly called Dark Earth-yet is very different from the Dark Earth on RAF aircraft).

The ACI/AMO promulgating the intro of OD was not until April 1944 with the paint being avalible on a "repaint only as necesary allocation" from May. So it is highly unlikely many of the vehicles allocated in mid 43 would or even could, have been repainted into OD by D Day. ACI 553 prohibited units whose vehicles were SCC2 from drawing OD paint.

 

 

 

Regards TED

 

Happy to stand corrected on this. My suggestion was based on pics I'd seen and info received from the archives at Hendon. Nothing to beat some original source material though! Thanks for this.

[Richard Farrant]

Richard I dread to think how many phone calls I made especially once I got my feet in the door at certain places as to where the pre 1949 registration records were . The reply was always if you find out please let us know!

Regarding contracts again can't help, my research has mainly been focussed towards model making, markings, colours, who used what and why .

 

 

Thanks Ted,

 

I just need an authentic WW2 type RAF number for the car, it being a late war contract. If you have any good photos ( wartime period ), I would be pleased to see them :tup::

[T corbin]

RAF MT Orders 31-12-43. T CORBIN

[ted angus]

Tony, thanks for sharing this: a slight typo on your heading. the AMO is dated 31 12 42 not 43.

New Scheme: paint camouflage brown special No 2 is the RAF nomenclature for SCC 2.

THe two paints (one for metal/wood the other for canvas) for the disruptive pattern are SCC 1A

 

Old Scheme: paint Camouflague green No 3 called Khaki Green No 3 by the army

Tarmac green No 4 which was actually a very very dark grey green was the same name as the army used.

 

Until we went soley to using NATO stock numbers in the RAF we would use identical paint to the army but give it a slightly different title and of course our own 33A stock reference.

Once again this is a good example of the RAF being months behind the drag curve The Army order promulgating this change of schemes was dated 30 May 1942. (ACI 1160),

Tony do you have copies of AMO A820/42, A617 /41 or A618/41, A617 introduced the roundel and command letters, A618 introduced Khaki Green No 3 and Tarmac Green No 4 as the standard RAF colour in August 1941. I may contact Hendon to see if I can get them.

Thanks again for sharing, I hear your magnificent WOT1 is at Manston ??

regards TED

[Jessie The Jeep]

All the RAF colour photos I've got have vehicles in the background which are brown and black camo.

 

Steve

[ted angus]

Ted and co,

 

Thanks for all your replies. You have done a marvellous job clarifying the subject.

 

I'll have to dig out a few photos of WW2 RAF vehicles to post here.

 

NB - Have you thought about putting an article together for the MVT Windscreen or even here on HMVF?

 

I would consider something on here once I had the other authoritive documents. I have copies of all or most of the Army instructions and MTPs from which the A.M.orders were derived. Must get onto Hendon. In the meantime if anyone has WW2 RAF vehicle pictures I would be most grateful to see them please. The picture of the crane doing the engine change I posted earlier in the thread is the best example I have seen to date of Khaki Green number 3 (Cam Green No 3 as the RAF called it) and Tarmac green No 4,

In the film most other vehicles appear in the single Brown SCC2 . Mind with yellow topped tractors running around with trains of bomb trollies and an all yellow Morris Lt Recce car minus its turret towing the chequered ATC caravan, it made camoflague a bit unimportant, Flight Safety was the order of the day even in the winter of 43./ 44. In the attached the Morris Commercial is being used by the radio section to deliver black boxes GEE OBOE etc. to each aircraft. The Crane is undertaking a turret change from different angles in the film it could be green or it could be Brown SCC2 ??//////////////////????????????????????????//

TED

[N.O.S.]

If I have read all this correctly, this 1950s Scammell would never have been this colour in service? Pity cause I quite like it.

 

That was certainly the original colour below the $%$*$%^ green paint I scraped off !!!!!

 

The problem area was the cab interior - base paint was same blue/grey, so I repainted it as such. But it made the cab such a depressing place to sit in, I contacted Duxford to be told that Eau de Nile was correct for that period - what a relief to hear that, and worth the repainting effort!

 

The QL refueller at Duxford is in blue/grey with yellow top surfaces (flightline vehicles).

 

Excellent work, Ted!

[gritineye]

Mine had been with the Royal Aircraft Establishment after the FVRDE and I was hoping to find Blue/gray under the paint but none there. What is EAU de Nile?

[snowtracdave]

Might not quite match but this is from the Dulux Heritage coulour chart .

[gritineye]

Might not quite match but this is from the Dulux Heritage coulour chart .

 

So, like cockpit green then, nice restful colour. Thanks

[Tony B]

My local Dulux Colour Centre has a coulor match service, take in a sample about two inch square and let them work the magic. Matches are excellent.

[Guest catweazle (Banned Member)]

My local Dulux Colour Centre has a coulor match service, take in a sample about two inch square and let them work the magic. Matches are excellent.

Tried that with Cat yellow and sky blue,rubbish.

[ted angus]

EAU DE NIL is BS 381c tint 216 it is a BS current colour any paint dealers claiming he can do BS 381c colours can do this. In addition to the inside of cabs and pasenger vehicles other than cars it was the required colour for inside lockers eg on fire trucks.

Sky blue is BS 381c tint 101 thats the colour used on MoD reconditioned engines,

Cannot help with Cat yellow but the yellow on the upper surfaces of RAF vehicles is BS 381c tint 356 Golden Yellow.

good luck

ps our local big B & Q has a sign saying we can mix and BS or RAL (German standard ) colour can they hell !!

regards TED

[Richard Farrant]

Bernard,

 

I believe you are in East Sussex, there is a auto paint specialist in Northiam, called Britcon, by the station. They mix sythetic paint ( like the old coach paint ) and I have had Eau-de-Nil from them, wartime engine colour for tanks, etc. Cost is about £10 per litre tin.