registraton marks

[devonblacksmith]

Hi I am new here and have a question about reg marks I have a 2a land rover with a no 78 AA 46 wot can I find out about this? also the reg doc says first registered 1969 but appears to be earlier is there a reason for this I hope some-one can help.

[antarmike]

Army vehicles are not registered, they don't have to be. 78 AA 46 is it's military identification number not a registration. The vehicle registration date is the time it was first registered for road use under civilian ownership. Ie it's time in the Airforce or whatever predates this registration date.

 

Swansea DVLA have no access to Military Numbers, nor are they any interest to them. DVLA history of a veicle begins as soon as it is required by law to be registered, and not before. That is at the start of Civilian ownership.

Edited May 26, 2008 by antarmike

[ted angus]

78 AA 46 is part of a batch of 88" in service 1962. Hendon may have a card for it. Mike if you look at an RAF MT record card depending on its format, either line one or three is titled : RAF Registration No. Sorry to contradict. So in this case the owner is quite corect in describing 78AA 46 as its registration number. In my 39 years service it was never described or formally recorded as anything else. Army and RAF vehicles are registered with the relevant authority at Chilwell just as civillian vehicles are registered at DVLA . Attached is a sample card .

TED

[antarmike]

Army vehicles are not registered, they don't have to be. 78 AA 46 is it's military identification number not a registation

 

I agree but I mean not a DVLA civilian registration. The Chances are that the document this Gentleman has is a civilian DVLA Registration.

 

I was pointing out that DVLA do not hold records for serving Military Vehicles, so the information he has shows it's first civilian registration.

 

 

 

The Brass Chassis plate on my Matador reads Vehicle Number 74 AV 30 (Not registration Number)

but I admit the Record Card reads

RAF Registration Number 74 AV30

Civilian registartion Number ...........(left blank)

 

The RAF clearly do not recognise their number as a civilian Registration Number (which is my point)

 

The Brass plate on my Eager beaver reads W.D. No. 02 FW 96 (Again not Registration Number)

 

 

During the War A Matador carried a number such as number such as H 4133390 and is referred to as A WD Census number

 

This particular Mat was renumbered as 1715462 in circa 1949, renumbered again as 86 YY 42 in 1950 and only upon a REME rebuild did it gain 11 RH 93 (which is referred to as a REME Rebuild registration.)

 

The present system has evolved from the Wartime Census number and that was not (I beleive) a registration in the normal sense of the word)

 

I point out also that you do not register trailers in civilian usage. They Carry the registration mark of the Towing Vehicle.

 

In Military usage Trailers carries and displays it's own unique number, not the number of the towing vehicle. Clearly if the Two number, two letter two numbers are given to army trailers they are not registration marks in any traditional sense.

 

The Civilian Registration process is to enable a vehicle to be taxed for road usage. Again Military vehicles have not had to pay for a road fund excise licence. They do not carry Tax discs.. again I say that the Number on a Military vehicle difers in function from a Civilian Registration.

Edited May 26, 2008 by antarmike

[antarmike]

[antarmike]

74 AV 30 is officially called the Equipment Registration Mark or ERM but equally it is referred to as the "military Serial"

 

Pre 1949 the records for a vehicle was held on a key card. From 1949 Vehicles Serials were allocated from a series of "Registers". The Register is the name for the large sheet consisting of Ruled lines, There being one register for each Letter pair. Ie All the ??AA?? serials appear one one "Register", all the ??AB?? serials appear on another "Register".

 

To say that a military vehicle is registered only means its Military Serial is entered onto one of these registers.

 

I point out my Phone is registered with Nokia, My Computer is registered with Packard Bell and my Cad software is registered with Autocad....I myself am registered on the Register of Electors, I still maintain A military vehicle is not registered in the way most people would understand it...

Edited May 26, 2008 by antarmike

[79x100]

The Civilian Registration process is to enable a vehicle to be taxed for road usage. Again Military vehicles have not had to pay for a road fund excise licence. They do not carry Tax discs.. again I say that the Number on a Military vehicle difers in function from a Civilian Registration.

 

Ah, an opportunity to play the pedant here ! I realise that this thread relates to post-war vehicles but prior to September 1939, WD vehicles were required to carry a civil registration number (usually from blocks of Middlesex allocations) as well as a Road Fund Licence.

 

 

This was in addition to the Central Census WD Number. (The 1936 series number is on the fuel tank here).

 

I believe that the 'Key Cards' recorded the transition from the surviving Census number vehicles to the the post-war number sequences but often they do show 'rebuild' numbers rather than the original production allocation.

[devonblacksmith]

Sorry all I meant the DVLA civilian registration is saying that the land rover was registered in 1969 but appears to be from about 1962/3,you have answered this for me now many thanks all

Ted Angus said Hendon may have a card for it how would I find out about this?does this mean that this is an RAF land rover or not?

[antarmike]

AA is an RAF series, yes it is (was) RAF

[devonblacksmith]

Thanks for the help, any idea if green is the correct color for this ?

[ted angus]

Mike , I am not going to get into a bun fight but: both RAF and Army vehicles carried county council reg numbers until 1941, they even displayed a tax disc. Army vehicles concurrently displayed a census number. The RAF introduced its own numbering system RAF 1234etc in 1941. From that time CC registration for both services ceased. In 49 RAF serials and Army census numbers were replaced by the letter pairs. Yes, in the RAF each pair had a register.

When a batch (or single vehicle ) was ordered/procured etc the ordering authority requested issue of a reg number from the register to each vehicle in the order.

I have a copy of the bulk of the AG register the left hand column is titled you guessed Registration Number. AS I previously said I was involved daily for 39 years we only ever called it a reg number. ERM is only a Politically correct title falling in line with the civvy term VRM.

re trailers only the army & RAF individually register trailers the RN normally affix the reg of the towing vehicle. The MT regulations JSP which, only part of is recognised by the RN uses the term re RAF & Army trailers "trailers will bear their own registration mark. " Mark being the "PC" modern term for number.

AS for the gent getting the card : do a google for Hendon museum all the contact detail and how to request a card is on there good luck. In conclusion its all just down to the interpretation of words, i don't know how long your service was Mike or how close it was involved with MT but on the ground floor and on the bulk of documents the term is registration number issued by the relevant RAF or Army registration authority and is reflected on all documents of the subject period.

TED

[antarmike]

My point is DVLA say this was First Registered in 1969. Logic says that before then it was unregistered. (What other state can it be in before being "First registered"?)

 

So it was carrying a 2 number, 2 Letter, 2 number mark from 1962 to 1969, but as far as DVLA and I am concerned it was "unregistered" for this period.

 

I am not into bunfight either,

[antarmike]

The confusion comes because the mark it carried in the RAF is called "Equipment Registration Mark" "Serial Number" "Vehicle Number" and in other circumstances such marks are also called "W.D.Numbers"

[ted angus]

Mike slightly different tack but re reg number related : is your Antar an FUL reg ? and is ex MPBW ? and prior to that RAF ?At the time I joined ACB was being wound down and a lot of vehicles went to the MPBW later to be known as DoE then PSA etc etc I have heard it has an interesting history but cannot find it on the Forums.

TED

[ted angus]

I also meant to add 2 MT at 16MU Stafford were still operating Matadors flat bed (like yours) and GS bodies when I went there in 67. At that time St Athan and Luqa Malta were operating topless Mats with stake side bodies in the aircraft towing and recovery role. But pictureas seem few and far between .

[antarmike]

You'll see from the Matadors Record Card that it was built by Crossley in 1953, but was passed from MU to MU as a stored vehicle until 1975.

 

It was not allocated to a unit until 1975, and then it went to the R.N. who only had it 10 years before disposal, It had less than 2000 miles on the clock when I bought it.

 

The Antar was even shorter in service. New to the Air Ministry, ACB in 1961, by 1963 it went to MPBW where it gained the FUL reg.

Previsously it had been 40 AT 81. The AT series was mainly Airfield construction equipment, Road roller, Tarmac layers etc.

 

The Trailer I have dates from the 1950's and was originally paired with one of the RAF's 8 Petrol Antars (AN Series). It is badged as a Trailer, Plant Transporter, 50 Tons.

 

Two such trailers were converted to carry out the 70 ton plate load bearing test. MY Antar had one trailer the other was paired to the only petrol Antar the RAF retained. Seven of the 8 Transferred with ZB serial to the Army.

 

The Trailer carried 50 ton of ballast weights and was fitted with a Hydraulic ram that worked downwards onto the runway to lift the loaded trailer (70 Tons) in the air.

 

Initially a 26" dia steel plate spread this load, but in a series of tests, the plate was gradually reduced to a 9" dia plate.

 

Two arms swung out from the trailer, carrying a series of Dial test indicators, that rested on the runway. Over time the trailer deflected the tarmac and sunk. The DTI's plotted how the runway curved, and enabled the boffins to assess the strength of the runway.

 

It went from MPBW tp PSA and ended up at TPS Consult, (part of Tarmac group) spending it's entire working life testing runways.

 

It has travelled repeatedly to all the military airfields in Britain (including the American ran airfields) (and as well as civil Airports), been round Holland, Germany, landed on LST on the beach on the outer Hebrides. It has been to Malta, Gibraltar and Cyprus. Circa 1971/2 it went to Antigua by ship.

 

It has I believe 144,000 miles on the clock

 

Through the whole of it's life it was based at RAF Cardington, and for most of the time the RAF's M.T. section maintained it (and even painted it Blue Grey on about 6 occassions)

[ted angus]

Mike most interesting many thanks, I see by the card your Mat started as a RVT 550 Mk1 with the Leyland generating set, I was in Cyprus 70-74 and part of the near east air force contingency store of kit at 103MU was a fleet of these mainy with ultra low mileage, I see yours later had the gen set removed and converted to an ac servicing truck by Ashchurch. I never saw one of these but I believe it was just the original RVT body with some basic workshop gear inside for use on flightlines. The first time I did a course at Cardington the MPBW/DoE/PSA had a huge facility opposite the airfield, training school, task planning etc. We used to learn HV & MV power supplies skills to be used post nuclear attack LOL !!

I saw your piccies of the Antar at the Airship shed : on all my courses at cardington the northern shed was used by the RAE Farnborough parachute test flight, with Airship industries using a portion. the southern shed was in use as the fire research station and i saw the reconstruction of the multi fatal dublin disco fire. When yours was acting as door opener was it still on ministry charge ?

thanks again for the info

regards TED

[antarmike]

It was door opening on PSA, but continued into it's days with Tarmac

[antarmike]

I have had it suggested to me that the Conversion that took place at Ashchurch may have only been a paper exercise that may only reflect the re-coding of the RAF Stores number (16A/1508) to an Army Asset Code(2533-0053).

 

This doesn't seem likely to me. What more can you say about "Truck, Van, Aircraft Rectification, AEC Matador" and it's equipment and use..?

 

(incidentally I thought I might get some comment from someone re the record card as to why A Matador was supplied by Crossley, not AEC)

[ted angus]

Mike I have the Radio vehicle data book leaf on the RVT 550 and the data book of MT leaf on the aircraft servicing job. I will scan and post.

A complete role and internal fitting change. possibly be later tonight but certainly in the next couple of evenings.

regards TED

[antarmike]

Mike I have the Radio vehicle data book leaf on the RVT 550 and the data book of MT leaf on the aircraft servicing job. I will scan and post.

A complete role and internal fitting change. possibly be later tonight but certainly in the next couple of evenings.

regards TED

Cheers that's brilliant but why would they have gone to all that effort just to put it back into storage again? I can understand doing a conversion if a vehicle is required by a certain unit but I can't see why you do it just for a vehicle going back into storage.

[antarmike]

Antar (under PSA) at Cardington

[antarmike]

Ditto

[antarmike]

And the only two shots I have of it (PSA) with the converted Dyson

[antarmike]

When I bought the trailer 10 years ago, it was still blue grey, It still had the diesel/ Hydraulic power pack, but the Ballast weights had been robbed by Tarmac for use a crane counter balance weights. The ram mountings were still there but the ram had gone,

 

You'll recognise the 400 PSI aircraft tyre compressor on the front, I guess.

The weights were steel bundled into 2 ton blocks. Luckily six had been put into the Antar Ballast box, and I was lucky enough to get these in the deal.

[ted angus]

Sorry forgot this part of the question into service in 1962 it would have been gloss RAF blue/grey BS 381c tint 633. There is a remote chance if it went to the near east air force it would have been repainted light Stone. BS 381c tint 621, We didn't start using matt green in the RAF until 1974/5 there are dozens of preserved vehicles running round in matt green that left military service before we went matt green.

The one exception, but not applicable to your Landie is that vehicles attached to the 2nd Tactical Air Force in north West Europe circa mid to late 1950s were Gloss Deep Bronze Green BS 381c tint 224 including fire trucks. Obviously not everything achieved that colour in the 2TAF area as painting was only to be done as a repaint was due.

TED