Military Fodens

[cosrec]

May be getting over my head with this one but i think crane trailers were originally given dispensation because the weights were origonally one lump. I think every body tends to over look this now they are a multiple parts and will cotinue to do so until something trajic happens involing one and some smart *****

lawyer comes in with a big claim. Same to be said for overwidth vehicle i bet you have no way of recompense of DVLA if proved wrong after all buck stops with owner

[cosrec]

I am not sure you are getting good advice from DVLA. They do make mistakes. A ballast tractor is not a vehicle definition. If by Ballast tractor you mean heavy locomotive, then the width limit rises from 2.55 m but only to 2.75 m, still not wide enough to allow use of a 2.9 m wide vehicle.

If by ballast tractor you mean HILV then, because of its relataive youth ( I am presuming it is post 29/7/1983) it needs to be fitted, at manufacture with an STGO plate containing maximum axle, gross and train weight, at speeds of 20,25,30, 35 and 40 MPH. If it doesn't have this plate and is post 29/07/1983 it cannot be classed as HILV.

STGO plates can still be done retospectivly by various companies but it dosnt exempt the vehicle from plate and testing till you get to the largest catogory. IT also has to be done with consultation with the manufacturer or their represntive. I cant find the papers now but it used to be a lady called jenny i will have a little bet you cannot get it above 32 tonnes GVW

[Plantters]

Was up at withams today and to be honest was a little dissapointed but not entirely surprised at the state of the 6 x 6 wreckers up there.

 

The 4 that are intended for the tender are slightly better than the ones in the last auction but only slightly.

 

The others, at least 10 of them, that are available for direct sale did not inspire.

 

Starting at 37k for one that allegedly runs and drives but has no clutch..... :-X rising to 60K for one that is just about complete.

 

None of them have a single bit of kit or any of the remotes etc.... no forks, no chains, no bars, nothing.

 

I have uploaded all the pictures I took to PB but they were so squeezed in that it was hard to get a good picture but what I did take you will find in the folder... Fodens at withams

 

http://s852.photobucket.com/home/plantters/index

 

There is one that is complete and a lovely example but Withams are holding it back for their own use which means that their trusty Scammell Crusader / EKA that they have used as a yard shunter for some years is now up for sale.... Nice clean truck with a good kit, circa 14.5K!! Now that is GVFM!!

[antarmike]

why couldn't it come under engineering plant or road recovery?

It has the capacity and method to recover.

 

 

To be a recovery vehicle the following conditions of Vehicle Excise and Registration act 1994 have to apply

The act says, Quote"

Part V

 

Recovery vehicles

 

5 (1) The annual rate of vehicle excise duty applicable to a recovery vehicle is £85.

(2) In sub-paragraph (1)“recovery vehicle” means a vehicle which is constructed or permanently adapted primarily for any one or more of the purposes of lifting, towing and transporting a disabled vehicle.

(3) A vehicle is not a recovery vehicle if at any time it is used for a purpose other than—

(a) the recovery of a disabled vehicle,

(b) the removal of a disabled vehicle from the place where it became disabled to premises at which it is to be repaired or scrapped,

© the removal of a disabled vehicle from premises to which it was taken for repair to other premises at which it is to be repaired or scrapped,

(d) carrying fuel and other liquids required for its propulsion and tools and other articles required for the operation of, or in connection with, apparatus designed to lift, tow or transport a disabled vehicle, and

(e) any purpose prescribed for the purposes of this sub-paragraph by regulations made by the Secretary of State.

(4) At any time when a vehicle is being used for either of the purposes specified in paragraphs (a) and (b) of sub-paragraph (3), use for—

(a) the carriage of a person who, immediately before the vehicle became disabled, was the driver of or a passenger in the vehicle,

(b) the carriage of any goods which, immediately before the vehicle became disabled, were being carried in the vehicle, or

© any purpose prescribed for the purposes of this sub-paragraph by regulations made by the Secretary of State,

shall be disregarded in determining whether the vehicle is a recovery vehicle.

(5) A vehicle is not a recovery vehicle if at any time the number of vehicles which it is used to recover exceeds a number specified for the purposes of this sub-paragraph by an order made by the Secretary of State."unquote

 

 

As I said earlier you can only use a vehicle taxed as Recovery, for recovery purposes. You cannot prance around the country in a recovery vehicle. You could register a Foden Drops as recovery, but it would only be allowed on the road in the circumstances above. Not much use to get it to a Military vehicle show!

Edited February 4, 2010 by antarmike

[LoggyDriver]

Was up at withams today and to be honest was a little dissapointed but not entirely surprised at the state of the 6 x 6 wreckers up there.

 

The 4 that are intended for the tender are slightly better than the ones in the last auction but only slightly.

 

The others, at least 10 of them, that are available for direct sale did not inspire.

 

Starting at 37k for one that allegedly runs and drives but has no clutch..... :-X rising to 60K for one that is just about complete.

 

None of them have a single bit of kit or any of the remotes etc.... no forks, no chains, no bars, nothing.

 

I have uploaded all the pictures I took to PB but they were so squeezed in that it was hard to get a good picture but what I did take you will find in the folder... Fodens at withams

 

http://s852.photobucket.com/home/plantters/index

 

There is one that is complete and a lovely example but Withams are holding it back for their own use which means that their trusty Scammell Crusader / EKA that they have used as a yard shunter for some years is now up for sale.... Nice clean truck with a good kit, circa 14.5K!! Now that is GVFM!!

 

 

 

 

 

I wonder if they have paid the Army £70,000 for that one then???? I bet they haven't paid a penny. When any trucks are released they should include ALL CES equipment as part of the sale. Withams just strip everything and sell it seperately in the tender or sales. I bought the missing CES for my Bedford at Beltring last year. When I asked Paul for a deal he more or less told me where to go. It was only after I pointed out that it was CES missing from the truck when I bought it that he knocked about £30 off.

[Plantters]

I wonder if they have paid the Army £70,000 for that one then???? I bet they haven't paid a penny. When any trucks are released they should include ALL CES equipment as part of the sale. Withams just strip everything and sell it seperately in the tender or sales. I bought the missing CES for my Bedford at Beltring last year. When I asked Paul for a deal he more or less told me where to go. It was only after I pointed out that it was CES missing from the truck when I bought it that he knocked about £30 off.

 

I'm not sure you are right on that one.

 

I have known a couple of the guys at Withams for some time now and am told that, especially with recovery vehicles, much of the kit is taken and used to replaced lost / broken items for vehicles that are remaining in service.

Many of the Scammell Crusader EKA's that came out in the first few waves were exactley the same.

As for what Withams paid .....

I believe that much of the stuff that withams sells is sold under the following conditions.

 

MOD stipulate a minimum price they wil accept.

Withams sell for whatever they can get over and above that price.

Withams split this profit 50 / 50 with MOD

 

The extract from the House of Commons Hansard extract from July 2008 would appear to support this

 

Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) what control his Department has over who the ultimate owners are of armoured personnel carriers being sold by his Department to Witham (Specialist Vehicles) Ltd; [216482]

(2) how many decommissioned armoured personnel carriers have been sold abroad in each year since 2006; [216485]

(3) how many Saxon armoured personnel carriers have been sold by his Department to Witham (Specialist Vehicles) Ltd. [216486]

Mr. Bob Ainsworth: The Department does not sell armoured personnel carriers to Witham (Specialist Vehicles) Ltd. The company acts as the selling agent for surplus MOD vehicles under the terms of an incentive-based contract. The receipts from sale are shared in an agreed proportion between the company and the Department.

All surplus equipment sold into the commercial marketplace is demilitarised and declassified. In that event, when vehicles are purchased from Witham to be exported outside the United Kingdom, purchasers are obliged to comply with normal UK export licence regulations. The Department has no control over the ultimate owner of the vehicles.

Between 1 January 2006 and 3 July 2008, 44 Saxon vehicles were sold on behalf of the Department. The Department does not hold information on which of those vehicles purchased to date remain within the United Kingdom and which have been exported.

Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence for what reasons his Department is selling armoured personnel carriers. [216483]

Mr. Bob Ainsworth: The Saxon General War Role (Saxon GWR) is being removed from service and sold because it no longer meets the requirements of the Army, and has been declared obsolete.

[cosrec]

late last week got involved in an rta involving rolled tanker. after vosa had done their job we had time to kill while plod did their bit. Got talking about over width vehicles top man from Vosa just said convert them to run on gas job solved. Maybe an avenue here for Amazon Joe and stalwart owners. Must be worth some research guy would not enlighten me any more than that.

[Richard Farrant]

Got talking about over width vehicles top man from Vosa just said convert them to run on gas job solved. Maybe an avenue here for Amazon Joe and stalwart owners.

 

The Rolls B81 engine, (as in the Stalwart) was also produced to run on gas and used in buses and trucks, so might be a relatively easy conversion.

[N.O.S.]

...Got talking about over width vehicles top man from Vosa just said convert them to run on gas job solved. Maybe an avenue here for Amazon Joe and stalwart owners. Must be worth some research guy would not enlighten me any more than that.

 

Very strange :??? - wonder what that is about, but as you say could turn out to be a lifeline. Good call Cosrec! :thumbsup:

[antarmike]

late last week got involved in an rta involving rolled tanker. after vosa had done their job we had time to kill while plod did their bit. Got talking about over width vehicles top man from Vosa just said convert them to run on gas job solved. Maybe an avenue here for Amazon Joe and stalwart owners. Must be worth some research guy would not enlighten me any more than that.

The reason the VOSA man wouldn't be anymore forthcoming was he was talking Bullshyte.

 

Road Vehicles (authorisation of Special Types)(general) order 2003 does indeed have a category for gas powered vehicles.

 

You will find it at Article 55 and Schedule 12 within the Order.

 

It is however absolutely no use to a Stalwart or a Foden Drops owner trying to find a way to legally use them on the road.

 

The problem is that each category within Special Types exempts a vehicle within that category from complying with certain aspects of construction and use regs and what is exempted varies according to the Special Types Category.

 

Special types vehicles still have to comply with all the other requirements of Construction and Use regs, just not those specifically named as exemptions for that category.

 

Only some of the categories within "Special types" allow a width greater than C and U regs, Gas powered vehicles is not one of them.

 

Gas powered vehicles are exempt rules relating to carrying gas, the design and mounting of the Gas tank and piping etc. and that is all. You cannot fit tanks containing Gas under pressure (>30Bar) to a Petrol or Diesel powered vehicle. Special types allows their fitment to a vehicle but only if the tanks hold the fuel that is powereing the vehicle.

 

Put simply the" Special Types" category "Nutural Gas powered vehicle" allows that mounting of a gas tank and piping that is not be allowed to be fitted to any other vehicle, and that is all it does.

 

Gas powered vehicles are not exempted from complying with Length, width, weight, axle weight, MAM, or any thing like that.

 

A gas powered Special type has to keep to the same dimensional limits as a Diesel powered vehicle, so Gas powered vehicles cannot exceed 2.55m if they are "Any other vehicle" or 2.75M if they are a Locomotive.

 

Sorry no way forward in this direction.

 

Operational Military Vehicles are exempt anything that the Secretary of State certifies that, for" Operational Reasons", the vehicle cannot comply with.

 

Released out of service Ex Military vehicles have to comply with C and U or an appropriate Special Types category.

 

I do not believe there is a category for FV432 series, Stalwart, or Foden drops.

 

Have a look for yourselves....

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/SI/si2003/20031998.htm

Edited February 11, 2010 by antarmike

[cosrec]

ops should have done a bit of research before posting

[LoggyDriver]

I'm not sure you are right on that one.

 

I have known a couple of the guys at Withams for some time now and am told that, especially with recovery vehicles, much of the kit is taken and used to replaced lost / broken items for vehicles that are remaining in service.

Many of the Scammell Crusader EKA's that came out in the first few waves were exactley the same.

As for what Withams paid .....

I believe that much of the stuff that withams sells is sold under the following conditions.

 

MOD stipulate a minimum price they wil accept.

Withams sell for whatever they can get over and above that price.

Withams split this profit 50 / 50 with MOD

 

The extract from the House of Commons Hansard extract from July 2008 would appear to support this

 

Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) what control his Department has over who the ultimate owners are of armoured personnel carriers being sold by his Department to Witham (Specialist Vehicles) Ltd; [216482]

(2) how many decommissioned armoured personnel carriers have been sold abroad in each year since 2006; [216485]

(3) how many Saxon armoured personnel carriers have been sold by his Department to Witham (Specialist Vehicles) Ltd. [216486]

Mr. Bob Ainsworth: The Department does not sell armoured personnel carriers to Witham (Specialist Vehicles) Ltd. The company acts as the selling agent for surplus MOD vehicles under the terms of an incentive-based contract. The receipts from sale are shared in an agreed proportion between the company and the Department.

All surplus equipment sold into the commercial marketplace is demilitarised and declassified. In that event, when vehicles are purchased from Witham to be exported outside the United Kingdom, purchasers are obliged to comply with normal UK export licence regulations. The Department has no control over the ultimate owner of the vehicles.

Between 1 January 2006 and 3 July 2008, 44 Saxon vehicles were sold on behalf of the Department. The Department does not hold information on which of those vehicles purchased to date remain within the United Kingdom and which have been exported.

Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence for what reasons his Department is selling armoured personnel carriers. [216483]

Mr. Bob Ainsworth: The Saxon General War Role (Saxon GWR) is being removed from service and sold because it no longer meets the requirements of the Army, and has been declared obsolete.

 

 

 

 

 

 

If that was the case then the equipment would be removed prior to arriving at Withams. I've seen the many Ptarmigan vehicles stripped of their Clark masts, gennys, comms boxes etc and these have been sold seperately.

[Plantters]

If that was the case then the equipment would be removed prior to arriving at Withams. I've seen the many Ptarmigan vehicles stripped of their Clark masts, gennys, comms boxes etc and these have been sold seperately.

 

I thought we were talking about Recovery vehicles not Ptarmigans... However I will shut up anyway!

[stal108]

I have just bought a Foden drops. I am looking at all what is said about size and registering it. Well i tank it the main point is its width. 2.9m very wide but under 9,ft 6in

1 foot is 0.3048 x this by 9.6 = 2.92m not 2.9

or if you said 1 meter is 3ft 3in = 9.57 ft

For some oldtimers metric is what this truck was designed in

So are we happy to say it is not notifiable

It has a max GTW of 54000kg this would come under STGO cat2 regs? A special types plate would need to be obtained.(Easy)

I need a spare wheel and tyre ???? 20.5x25 anyone??

[recymech66]

I'm not sure you are right on that one.

 

I have known a couple of the guys at Withams for some time now and am told that, especially with recovery vehicles, much of the kit is taken and used to replaced lost / broken items for vehicles that are remaining in service.

Many of the Scammell Crusader EKA's that came out in the first few waves were exactley the same.

As for what Withams paid .....

I believe that much of the stuff that withams sells is sold under the following conditions.

 

 

You are correct, to give you an example, all units now operating MAN SV® have taken approx half the CES from Foden recovery vehicles as it's interchangeable less items specific to the EKA recovery device ie, lifting forks, lifting bars etc. items such as chains etc would be left on as the new vehicle comes with uprated chains/strops etc. Likewise some items which remain with the Fodens will be taken to replace lost/damaged items for others in the fleet.

[cosrec]

I have just bought a Foden drops. I am looking at all what is said about size and registering it. Well i tank it the main point is its width. 2.9m very wide but under 9,ft 6in

1 foot is 0.3048 x this by 9.6 = 2.92m not 2.9

or if you said 1 meter is 3ft 3in = 9.57 ft

For some oldtimers metric is what this truck was designed in

So are we happy to say it is not notifiable

It has a max GTW of 54000kg this would come under STGO cat2 regs? A special types plate would need to be obtained.(Easy)

I need a spare wheel and tyre ???? 20.5x25 anyone??

 

i think antarmike has covered this very well in the past regards STO

[simon stolly]

i think antarmike has covered this very well in the past regards STO

 

So, no one else can comment on it?

 

Not much point of a forum, then is it???????????????

[cosrec]

So, no one else can comment on it?

 

Not much point of a forum, then is it???????????????

 

exactly thats the whole piont of a forum. Reason i posted what has changed on that foden to make it eligable to carry indivisable loads.

[simon stolly]

exactly thats the whole piont of a forum. Reason i posted what has changed on that foden to make it eligable to carry indivisable loads.

 

Sorry for sounding abrupt in my last reply, but I have heard alot from people saying that you can't register a Foden DROPs at 9.5ft wide for the road as a private user, strangely the same people that run around the country in a 10.5ft wide vehicle (for fun) whilst towing an over width trailer AND a living trailer. :cool2:

 

 

Please do go on and explain more, or could you show me where this post is?

[cosrec]

Sorry for sounding abrupt in my last reply, but I have heard alot from people saying that you can't register a Foden DROPs at 9.5ft wide for the road as a private user, strangely the same people that run around the country in a 10.5ft wide vehicle (for fun) whilst towing an over width trailer AND a living trailer. :cool2:

 

 

Please do go on and explain more, or could you show me where this post is?

 

The first poster Stal 108 was talking STO catagory i asked what had happened to make Foden eliagable for STO.

As for private use as you suggest i have no idea.

The only other examples i can give is when taking vehicles for plating and testing. We still run a volvo f10 that failed its first test on body to wide. this was due mis measurement by myself this was an absolute pain and involved a lot of work to alter it came out 20mm to wide. I also looked after 6 concrete mixers built from new all these had to have side guards and rear wings altered at first test these begin 30mm to wide

[cosrec]

To add if you look back you will see i fancied a foden drops but i was put off by advice from various agencys.

Although mine was to be used commercially as a recovery vehicle and with hindsight it pobably be made road legal. Maybe i was to cautious. To me it was a big investment with equipment on the back to end up with a white elephant.

As for restiering private i see no problems as you are not asked any questions regards how the vehicle is built. The problem comes when using the vehicle if something trajic happens and it does not conform to all the relavant regulations. The buck stops with the driver. Anyway best of luck with the project let us know how you go on

[radiomike7]

Sorry for sounding abrupt in my last reply, but I have heard alot from people saying that you can't register a Foden DROPs at 9.5ft wide for the road as a private user, strangely the same people that run around the country in a 10.5ft wide vehicle (for fun) whilst towing an over width trailer AND a living trailer. :cool2:

 

 

Please do go on and explain more, or could you show me where this post is?

 

Simon, as I understand it the Foden DROPS as released is an LGV and as such must conform to C&U regs which due to its width it will not. Mount a ballast body on the back and it becomes a locomotive which is currently exempt from plating/testing and C&U regs, although it would then be subject to loco speed restrictions.

 

Why are you having a pop at another member who has put so much time and effort into helping our hobby? Providing that the required notification is given and approved there is no reason why his combination should not be allowed on the road; he would be quite entitled to draw a third trailer if kept within the maximum permissible length.

[stal108]

Hi all

Fodens em

I am told i can get a stgo plate from the same people who did my s26 6x4 tractor unit. However they say the foden can be rated at over 100ton with no mods and they say ballast can be mounted on a demountable rack with no issues(better for suspention and bearings as well).so today i sent my money and await there reply. I have every intention of going to overloard show in a few weeks in it.

I like when people post why and why nots this is good for us all and if nothing else we all look a little harder at the issues. We may be right wrong but as is said it stops with the driver.

 

Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidence of wise men??????

 

WHAT IS SAFER?

Antar towing a dyson and a living wagon or just the dyson unloaded for that matter or a foden drops with abs and spring brakes.A forward control driving position up high.

Should we question the use of older less capable trucks for road use? is an antar realy fit for the roads of today? It may be legal or not but should it be used just for fun. If it were towing a 100ton load and it was a necessary journey it may be a different answer.Antars are awsom trucks and have a big following it is good to see them around. I have used a stgo truck to move my tanks would it be a good idea to pop to the shop in it.

I have a question

Can a stgo cat3 ballast tractor go to a truck show if it is running solo?

[arm carp]

:goodidea:

[stal108]

It seems to be the option then

STGO Cat3 loco running solo with a saladin as balast on a flat rack. I do have a over width drawbar trailer if they want to look.