Triumph 3SW

[Ron Epping]

 

 

Please to introduce me and my 3SW here. I have noticed there are some very knowledgeable people here concerning Triumph side valve motors, hopefully some information can be of interest for me and vice versa.

My name is Ron Epping and found my 3SW when i was 18. In a shed with a retired farmer. At last, the bike was used to get the cows out of the field as the farmer could not walk that far anymore... At that time (37 years ago) the gathering of info was writing letters to clubs and specialists, include a stamp and hope for an answer by mail again. People told me the Triumph could have been from 1937 or so, a Dutch specialist Cor H from the Dutch Triumph Owners Club. said it was most likely a war bike, being turned to civilian condition again in the late 1940's. I decided in those days to keep the bike as a civilian conversion from a post ware time. The cupper logo's of a Rotterdam bike shop where still present on the bike.

My older restauration included new bearings, piston, big end, gearbox bearings, magneto etc. I missed the oil pump, pump cover and items such as the speedo, steering damper etc. Recently I improved the restauration by adding new rubber footrests, steering rubbers, new tyres, improved wiring, grinding of cylinder barrel (piston vs barrel was too tight -> jamming at high temp) etc. At the Dutch WD site I have now found that the Triumph must have been from 1940. The following numbers are present : Frame TL 18142, Engine 3S 29683, engine is further stamped with a sign as a bird foot with an M 68 below this, also C5108 is found and a number 74307 which seems to be added later. 

Any comments or additional information about this is welcome. Also if 1940 is about correct and if the C5108 is the contract number which would have been on the tank. Speedo and steering damper seems very rare and hard to find, but any hints or tips or even look a likes (to pass the time while searching for originals) are welcome. 

Here a picture of the engine and a small movie, first start just after the grinding job some months ago..

[welbike]

Hello Ron, 
 

I am traveling, so don't have my files with me, but the C number is right there on the engine, C74307, and that is not a contract number!
 

Another Ron will be here soon, with more answers.
 

Cheers,
 

Lex Schmidt 

[rewdco]

Hello Ron,

Welcome on board. That's a nice one you've got there! Unfortunately the Triumph factory ledgers were destroyed during the Coventry Blitz in November 1940, so it won't be possible to give you exact details about your bike. But there are a few hints:

The military contract number is C/5108. This was a contract for 3.300 bikes. The Ministry of Supply had placed this order in September 1939, shortly after the war declaration against Nazi Germany. Production was to start on September 28th 1939, at 150 bikes per week.

Contract C/5108 was an RASC (Royal Army Service Corps) contract, the issued census numbers were C60788 - 61000 ; C62686 - 62885 ; C62916 - 63085 ; C63144 - 63585 ; C69586 - 70088 ; C70586 - 72365 . For the early RASC contracts the census number was always applied on the front and rear numberplates. Census number on the petrol tank came later... It is impossible to calculate the census number for an early RASC contract unfortunately.

Due to the loss of the factory ledgers during the Coventry Blitz, we don't know the exact first and last frame and engine numbers of this contract. So we can't say if it's an early C/5108 bike (of which quite a few went with the BEF to France during the Phoney War), or a later one that probably stayed in England all its life. But the frame number TL 18142 fits in the 17300 - 18299 batch of the next RASC contract (C/6128). This was a contract for 1.000 bikes, with census numbers C72366 - 72585 ; C80038 - 80763 ; one C/6128 bike went to the RAOC, with census number C4359296. Looks as if your bike doesn't have its original engine anymore, which is not unusual...

The broad arrow over M68 is the "acceptance marking", stamped by a resident MoS inspector.

Here's a few pictures of some C/5108 bikes, to give you an idea... (first one is BEF, captured by the Germans after the Dunkirk retreat). Plus a scan from the appropriate MoS ledger entry.

 

Edited January 5 by rewdco

[rewdco]

34 minutes ago, welbike said:

Hello Ron, 
 

I am traveling, so don't have my files with me, but the C number is right there on the engine, C74307, and that is not a contract number!
 

Another Ron will be here soon, with more answers.
 

Cheers,
 

Lex Schmidt 

Well, as you can see from my previous post, census number C74307 is not in the allotted series. It is true that the early RASC bikes often had their census number stamped on the crankcases, but this number was always preceded by the C prefix for motorCycles. The C is missing here...

But... When I look in the Chilwell list, census numbers C74000 - 75249 were reserved for the Canadian Forces (hence prefix CC). Here's an example:

It wouldn't surprise me if your 3SW would have been one of the bikes that had been transferred to the Canadians. They may have stamped their own census number (less CC prefix) on the crankcases...

We do have the details (original British census number against new Canadian census number) for the Nortons that were transferred to the Canadian Forces. Unfortunately I don't have a similar list for the Triumphs...

Edited January 5 by rewdco

[welbike]

That teaches me to try to see things on my phone, and then give an answer!

Cheers,

Lex

 

[rewdco]

I've just been trawling through my Triumph files, and I have found pictures of five other contract C/5108 Triumphs:

1. engine number 26863:

No stamped contract number, M68 acceptance marking and a stamped census number (C63410) from the contract C/5108 sequence.

2. engine number 27069:

No stamped contract number, M68 acceptance marking and a stamped census number (C63511) from the contract C/5108 sequence.

3. engine number 28163:

No stamped contract number, M68 acceptance marking but no stamped census number.

4. engine number 28594:

Contract number C5108 stamped on crankcases, M68 acceptance marking and a stamped census number (C71435) from the contract C/5108 sequence. The engine number is weird, there is an extra "3" in front of the 28594 number. Why...?

5. engine number 29227:

Contract number C5108 stamped on crankcases, M68 acceptance marking but no stamped census number (C71435).

6. engine number 29683 is Ron's engine:

Contract number C5108 stamped on crankcases, M68 acceptance marking but no census number from the C/5108 range.

[rewdco]

The difference between the highest number 29683 and the lowest number 26863 is 2.820, which pretty much covers the 3.300 bikes in this contract C/5108. There must have been a few hundred bikes before and / or after these 6 examples. 

At the same time, we can also see that Ron's engine was made towards the end of this contract. When Triumph started building this contract on September 28th 1939, at 150 bikes per week, it would have taken approximately 22 weeks to produce the complete contract. Which makes me think that Ron's engine must have left the Triumph factory somewhere in February 1940. This is my best guess...

Edited January 6 by rewdco

[rewdco]

As explained previously, Ron's frame number TL 18142 comes from the next contract (C/6128). This was a contract for 1.000 bikes (frame numbers TL 17300 - 18299 and census numbers C72366 - 72585 ; C80038 - 80763 ; one C/6128 bike went to the RAOC, with census number C4359296). According to Messrs O&M, production started "after C/5108 ", which would mean in approximately March 1940. O&M also give us a production rate of 300 bikes per week, which would mean that Ron's frame would have left the factory in approximately March - April 1940. 

Anecdote: still according to Messrs O&M, frame number 17366 was converted to carry a Bren gun, and this wasn't a very clever idea apparently...

Strangely enough, the bike in the article is wearing a contract C/5108 census number...

Edited January 6 by rewdco

[rewdco]

And then it went silent... Just wondering, was this the information that you were looking for Ron?

[Ron Epping]

Hello Rewdco, 

not silent here in Holland, I was simply digesting all information being sent. I logged on yesterday to read all this but could not respond : it was raining in Holland, I got wet from my commuting from work to home by bycicle, took a hot bath and ...yep ...fell a sleep right after this. 

Much better today, just returned from my garage / 3SW having the valve clearance checked again.

For your question : more information than expected. Thanks to you all who responded. 

A counter question : if the engine is from approx. feb and the frame from march, could this this be original as the factory swapped engines/frames in all the hurry to produce motorcycles for the army? If an engine would be changed here in Holland, you would expect a later engine, not one older.  And secondly, is the Canadian option likely? Or even both, as the Canadian contract mixed up priority's in assembly and here the swap is a result? just guessing of course.

Thanks a ton.

Ron

[rewdco]

Hi Ron,

OK, good to see that you liked my research! 😊

I don't think (I'm quite sure actually...) that the factory ever put a C/5108 engine in a C/6128 frame. According to Messrs O&M, the 3SW was used throughout the war ("Despite production of the model 3SW ceasing during 1941, the type remained in service until the end of the Second World War, principally in training and second-line roles. Following the end of hostilities in 1945 the model was quickly disposed of, many of the survivors being rebuilt to civilian specification during the late 1940s."), so it is not unlikely that the engine was changed somewhere during the war. 

Is the Canadian option likely? Good question... I think it could. Please let me quote from Clive Law's book "The Canadian Military Motorcycle": "To date, the Canadian Army (Overseas) (CAO) had used mostly Nortons (affectionately termed "snortin' Nortons") and Indians. By the end of June 1941, the total number of motorcycles purchased by the Canadian Army had reached 3,354. Of these the majority were Nortons (1,754 solos and 267 combos), followed by solo Triumphs (594), solo Enfields (486), and Indians (203 solos, 50 combos). The total delivery of Enfields included 236 machines originally ordered from Triumph but which, due to "enemy action", they were incapable of delivering. All of these motorcycles were obtained from the War Office, through requisition, for use by the Canadian Army in the United Kingdom."

So they definitely had almost 600 Triumphs (must have been 3SWs considering that this was June 1941), and judging by the pictures of CC74408, they weren't new when they were transferred to the Canadians. And they were used in the UK, so parts must have been available through the British Army workshops. These 74xxx census numbers were RASC, not RAOC. I can imagine that your bike was used by the Canadian Forces during the liberation of Europe as a RASC bike ("second line"). It may have been abandoned in Holland in 1945, bought and civilianised by a Rotterdam dealer, then bought by a farmer and finely it has ended up at your place... Just a thought...

[rewdco]

A picture from Clive Law's book:

[Ron Epping]

19 minutes ago, rewdco said:

Hi Ron,

OK, good to see that you liked my research! 😊

I don't think (I'm quite sure actually...) that the factory ever put a C/5108 engine in a C/6128 frame. According to Messrs O&M, the 3SW was used throughout the war ("Despite production of the model 3SW ceasing during 1941, the type remained in service until the end of the Second World War, principally in training and second-line roles. Following the end of hostilities in 1945 the model was quickly disposed of, many of the survivors being rebuilt to civilian specification during the late 1940s."), so it is not unlikely that the engine was changed somewhere during the war. 

Is the Canadian option likely? Good question... I think it could. Please let me quote from Clive Law's book "The Canadian Military Motorcycle": "To date, the Canadian Army (Overseas) (CAO) had used mostly Nortons (affectionately termed "snortin' Nortons") and Indians. By the end of June 1941, the total number of motorcycles purchased by the Canadian Army had reached 3,354. Of these the majority were Nortons (1,754 solos and 267 combos), followed by solo Triumphs (594), solo Enfields (486), and Indians (203 solos, 50 combos). The total delivery of Enfields included 236 machines originally ordered from Triumph but which, due to "enemy action", they were incapable of delivering. All of these motorcycles were obtained from the War Office, through requisition, for use by the Canadian Army in the United Kingdom."

So they definitely had almost 600 Triumphs (must have been 3SWs considering that this was June 1941), and judging by the pictures of CC74408, they weren't new when they were transferred to the Canadians. And they were used in the UK, so parts must have been available through the British Army workshops. These 74xxx census numbers were RASC, not RAOC. I can imagine that your bike was used by the Canadian Forces during the liberation of Europe as a RASC bike ("second line"). It may have been abandoned in Holland in 1945, bought and civilianised by a Rotterdam dealer, then bought by a farmer and finely it has ended up at your place... Just a thought...

A nice thought though : we have Canadian friends and family 🙂

The farmer where I bought the bike from, had its Dutch license plate which is registered in october 1949. so i might be the 2nd (or 3rd) owner after 1945... He lived close to Rotterdam. 

Any way, now I am certain about the origin and year of build. 

[Ron]

Fabulous research Jan. You can't hold a good man down!!

I've been following this with interest as I could see that it must have been through an engine change, The frame being from later contract C6128 (Same contract as mine "TL 17457") But was intrigued about the given census number for the engine, which is missing from the records. I think Jan has more or less proved the Canadian aspect.  

There is a little website dedicated to WD Triumph's run by a couple of young Dutchies (Jork and Edwin) you might like to add your details to their register. https://wdtriumph.com/

Regards "English" Ron 

 

[rewdco]

More "proof" for my "Canadian theory": as explained, the motorcycles census numbers block C74000 - 75249 were reserved for the Canadian Forces (hence new prefix CC). We've got the Norton document that shows that these numbers were split up in smaller blocks per maker, CC74000 - 74090 being the Nortons. The bike in the Canadian 3SW photograph is CC74408. Ron's bike would have been CC74307. If we consider that there were 594 Triumphs with a CC number, both numbers (74408 and 74307) could indeed come from the same Triumph block...

[Ron Epping]

7 hours ago, Ron said:

Fabulous research Jan. You can't hold a good man down!!

I've been following this with interest as I could see that it must have been through an engine change, The frame being from later contract C6128 (Same contract as mine "TL 17457") But was intrigued about the given census number for the engine, which is missing from the records. I think Jan has more or less proved the Canadian aspect.  

There is a little website dedicated to WD Triumph's run by a couple of young Dutchies (Jork and Edwin) you might like to add your details to their register. https://wdtriumph.com/

Regards "English" Ron 

 

Please to meet you Ron. And now good to know the name of rewdco : Jan. How do you guy get those dutch names 😉 ? 

I did read some other topics for the 3SW and noticed Ron that you mentioned the website of Jork and Edwin. I have contacted them and will send them photo's to register on their website. It is on their website where I spotted another 3SW with C5108 on the tank with 1940 as year of build. It is good to see many beautiful bikes here on this forum, makes me believe i need to try to get more original parts for mine. It can keep me busy in the future when I slow down my boiler engineering profession haha. 

[Ron Epping]

4 hours ago, rewdco said:

More "proof" for my "Canadian theory": as explained, the motorcycles census numbers block C74000 - 75249 were reserved for the Canadian Forces (hence new prefix CC). We've got the Norton document that shows that these numbers were split up in smaller blocks per maker, CC74000 - 74090 being the Nortons. The bike in the Canadian 3SW photograph is CC74408. Ron's bike would have been CC74307. If we consider that there were 594 Triumphs with a CC number, both numbers (74408 and 74307) could indeed come from the same Triumph block...

Jan, most interesting. A simple question from my side and within days the history of a 85 year old bike is becoming more and more clear. Again thanks for the research. 

[Ron Epping]

One more photo taken lately. As can be seen steering damper missing, speedo is not good and pump cover is not aluminium - I believe this cover is from 3HW. Anyway, considering this was a bike for the army it will never be original in its current state. 

But any tips for (more original) parts welcome. 

[welbike]

I have an original Triumph speedo and bracket dated October 1939, but am working on a trade with someone else in Holland. If it falls through, I will let you know.

Cheers,

Lex

[Ron]

Ron somthing which recently came to light, the front mudguard on these was raised up for military use with a slot cut in the top and longer stays, which it looks like yours has. Ron

[Ron Epping]

1 hour ago, welbike said:

I have an original Triumph speedo and bracket dated October 1939, but am working on a trade with someone else in Holland. If it falls through, I will let you know.

Cheers,

Lex

OK . thx in advance.

[Ron Epping]

1 hour ago, Ron said:

Ron somthing which recently came to light, the front mudguard on these was raised up for military use with a slot cut in the top and longer stays, which it looks like yours has. Ron

Ron correct. I have the slotted fixing and short front mud guard. Also the detachable rear end of the rear mud guard. The fixing of the slot I have 'invented' as I had no example or picture of this at that time. I use a bented strip which is hold back with a split pen. The bending pushes the mudguard to the fork. I hope such system was meant by the Triumph engineers.....

[Ron]

Ron the civilian central mounting was not used and a slot cut in the mudguard, simply to avoid the lug under the forks, For the WD bikes, two slotted "P" clips were employed to hold the mudguard and were fitted to the front fork tubes. Here is my 5SW. 

For the 3HW which were fitted with Webb forks, the rear tubes were used.  Ron 

[Ron Epping]

Thanks. This explains the holes in the mudguard on each side. My P clips where missing and had no clue what was supposed to be mounted there....

pieces are falling together. 30 years ago I wrote letters to the UK and NL Triumph owners clubs, included a stamp, and if lucky, one got within 2 or 3 weeks the answers back with some stencils or photocopy's.... A Forum like this improves the process a lot... 🙂 

[rewdco]

Another interesting document from the Canadian Archives:

"As regards to Q.M.G. (Quarter Master General) vehicles, the identification numbers will be allotted to the vehicle and painted on it in the V.R.D. before the vehicle is issued to the Unit concerned. In addition to having the number painted on the vehicle, each vehicle will have a seal with the vehicle number fastened to the steering column. This seal should remain fixed to the steering column permanently."

Obviously motorcycles don't have a "steering column". Would stamping this number on the crankcases have been the motorcycle alternative for this "permanently fixed seal" I wonder...?