Rucksack question(s)

[mad dan eccles]

Having just rummaged about and dug out some Cold War relics a question (or questions) came back to mind in regards to the SAS/GS and Artic rucksacks.

Was there any publications or illustrations that showed or explained the correct method of affixing the external frames and associated gubbins to them and/or what and how many bits and pieces were supposed to make up the ensemble (asides from the obvious 1x pack, 2x shoulder straps complete).

I did ask through an FOI about this a couple of years back, but got told they have nothing available as they are out of service (yet they could furnish answers on kit 30+ years older than these packs that have been out of service for an equal or greater length of time).

 

[fv1609]

Dan even back then I don't know what literature was available if any. I have rummaged through several sections & editions of AC No.12123 (Catalogue of Army Coded Publications) & their various parts circa 1990-2000 looking for infantry equipment & ancillaries but can't find anything for you, not even posters or aide memoirs.

I wondered if there might be a CES as even sometimes pointless publications are made where the CES consists of the equipment and the CES you have in your hand!

I wasn't really sure what to look for so I tried backpack, rucksack, Bergen, frame. I had one specialist listing in 1999

AC Code No. BACKPACK, Ancillaries Pack (Cougarnet)

I couldn't find anything in catalogues of AESPs either. Is there some other term I should have been looking for?

[mad dan eccles]

I'm not sure really, all I've got to go off is the item name and NSN on the main packs, i.e. Rucksack SAS 8465-99-136-1886, Rucksack GS 8465-99-132-2813 and Body, Rucksack Artic 8465-99-132-4552. Apart from the one SAS pack I have all are dated mid-late 70's to around '83, the one SAS pack being dated '89

I've got the bits like the shoulder straps, frames, back supports/waist belt, main pack.

Just after information on the correct method of assembly, any extra straps or parts that would go with the packs and the size and thickness of the plastic panels that would go with the SAS and Artic packs.

I also have a trials pattern GS pack that's had the original plastic quick release for the side pockets replaced with the later issued metal buckles and straps that I would like to return to original, but no idea where to source them or what kind I'd need.

I did ask the relevant department of the MoD's department of obscure knowledge a couple of years back but they came back blank on them all and that they're retired from service (said the same when I asked if there was anything about what specific use, if any, each pocket was for on PLCE rucksacks), which baffled me a bit cos they were able to furnish me with several documents on the Korean War and Falklands Parkas and other equally ancient bits of kit when I asked.

[jmehner]

I do not know if this is any help, but here is a Rucksack SAS 8465-99-136-1886. A trawl through that site may yield further results.

[fv1609]

Having the NSN is helpful because it gives the NSC 8465 which is the first group of the octad of an AESP.

The only AESP associated with 8465 is for Goggles GP Laser protection. I can find nothing in the CES catalogues I'm afraid.

[mad dan eccles]

I did think it was a long shot but you never know until you ask.

[mad dan eccles]

Whilst aimlessly searching other bits and pieces I came across an illustration from an issue manual for the Clansman PRC-351/2 showing it fitted for wear. Going off of that, and making the presumption of the GS and SAS rucksacks would have had the same scaling for frame fixtures and fittings, then they'd have;
1 x Frame, Packboard Mk.III, common name GS Carrier
1 set Harness GS (shoulder strap and strap loop for left and right shoulders)
1 pair of Strap, Back Support

Then of course the GS or SAS rucksack to fit on the frame (if you were entitled to have a rucksack).

One of the SAS packs I bought aaaages ago had two short nylon straps fed through the loops on the bottom of the pack under the front pouch to further secure it to the frame which some anecdotal reference long since lost/forgotten said were part of the issue for that pack and are like unicorn poop to find, but there's no markings visible on them to confirm nomenclature or an NSN.

The only other things I can think might have come along with, as guesswork, is the '58 pattern cotton webbing version of the utility strap and the exceptionally long, Strap, Cargo.

As for fitting the frame to either rucksack (mainly how the strap loop is fitted on the bottom) I'm going with the method that seems to be the predominant way illustrated in various listings of the rucksacks for sale.

All I need now is a few sheets of 1mm thick to knock up some new backing inserts for my SAS packs that are missing them. 

[SkipDX]

Dan, I’ve a few points to make which may give you some pointers in trying to establish what components were issued with the SAS/airborne rucksack.

On eBay, examples of  ‘NOS/unissued’ listed SAS/airborne rucksacks generally include the shortish straps that you mention, but some also have two or three of the two-metre-long ‘strap, load’ (8465-99-135-7307).

The shortish strap type can be seen on a current eBay listing for a ‘Rare Original British Army SAS UKSF Airbourne 1980’s Bergen Bag with Frame’. Identical straps are present on a number of rucksacks I have seen, and in fact I had one with a pair of these straps which lacked markings. Due to the number of rucksacks having these straps it seems likely  that the rucksacks left their manufacturers with a pair of these straps or they were added in large numbers later.

The ‘strap, load’ whilst not listed in the user handbook item tables for the PRC 320 and PRC 351/2 is a CES ancillary item for these radios, and from memory three were issued per radio. 

There is no explanation in any associated publications on the intended use for these straps, so initially I assumed their purpose was to strap radio ancillaries/other kit onto the carrier when the radio was used in a manpack role. However, I then read that a design requirement of the SAS/airborne rucksack was that the ‘frame, packboard’ (the GS carrier used with the SAS/airborne and GS rucksacks + PRC 320 and PRC  351/2) should be detachable from the rucksack body so it could be used to carry heavy/large items; a 20 litre water jerry can was the example of such an item, and this came from SAS experience in the Radfan Campaign.

Use of the GS carrier for this purpose would require some form of load securing using sufficiently long straps, and the shortish straps are too short for this job.

Possibly this is why examples of NOS/unissued SAS/airborne rucksacks on eBay include the load straps. It may also be why they were radio CES items - to permit the GS carrier to be used with the radio removed for load carrying. The GS carrier was actually used in this way when laying land line from D10 dispenser packs, although load straps were not needed for this use.

The rucksack I had was fitted with the backboard, which I understand was also known as a chinagraph board because its plastic surface could be written on with a chinagraph pencil when removed from rucksack to record and display information.

On the question of the number of straps, back support, when used for the SAS/airborne rucksack and Clansman manpack radios I have only seen two issued for use with the GS carrier.

[mad dan eccles]

Apart from the one pack I own, that one listing on eBay is the only other one I've seen with those little straps looped through the tapes on the bottom of the main pack to further secure it to the frame. Mine are also devoid of markings, but the look as if they maybe never came with any provided we're on about the same straps.

I'd gone with the thought process of the cargo straps, apart from securing cargo such as a water jerrycan or the such to a frame, would've been used for trapping an sleeping bag to the lower portion of the arctic rucksack, I suppose if I wanted to go full scaling I'd need one more of these though as pretty sure I only have 2 in my stash.

I've never heard of backboards being used for that before, I thought the were more there to provide so extra support or rigidity if the main pack was being worn without the frame. Out of the four SAS rucksack I have only one had the backboard with it, the others were all missing them.

Dimensions I have for the board are 1mm thick by 440mm long by 387mm wide. 

I'll take some snaps of my bits and pieces on the weekend or Monday and put them up after I finish night shift on Saturday morning and have had a few hours sleeps.

[mad dan eccles]

So through looking at various images of things, and with no available official documentation to the contrary, I'm going with the following for the Rucksack SAS.

Back Support 1 pair,  Shoulder Strap 1 pair, Strap Loop 1 pair, Straps unidentified (what few I've seen are used to secured the base of the rucksack to the shelf of the frame) 1 pair

 

Closer view of unidentified strap

Packboard Mk.III or GS Carrier x 1, this one appears to be slightly misshapen. 

Backing insert x1, measurements are stated in a previous comment. 

 

For the GS rucksack the only difference would be to takeaway the unidentified straps and the insert, and for the Arctic the backing board and frame are different. I do have some cargo straps for if the frame shown here was being used for carrying cargo like a Jerry can instead of a rucksack or radio but they are currently employed on my Arctic Rucksack securing a Mk.II Arctic sleeping bag system to it.

[SkipDX]

Dan,

I did a bit of research myself and from what I have learned I generally agree with you, but I couldn’t find any detail on the rucksack GS. I hope the info in this post is of use and I am also providing the associated NSNs so if the NSNs are present and readable on your items you can check these. 

Arctic Rucksack

Because the NSNs were codified sequentially, with the exception of the frame, this helps in identifying what the components were (doesn’t work for the other rucksacks even when using the earliest NSNs):

8645-99-132-4552 ‘Rucksack’

                      -4553 ‘Strap, waist’ (1)

                      -4554 ‘Strap, waist’

                     - 4555 ‘Strap, utility’ (2)

                     - 4556 ‘Strap, shoulder’

                     - 6263 ‘Frame, rucksack’ -Karrimor

(1) This number is no longer in the vocabulary (meaning it cannot be found on the current NSN database) possibly because it was soon superseded by the waist strap with the NSN ending in 4554, if these perform the same purpose.

Silvermans sell a belt stamped with 132 4552

https://www.silvermans.co.uk/products/r-marines-qr-padded-waist-belt?srsltid=AfmBOoojOjdmbGwh3WrpRkJDwRqjFCB8gaXhCh4PWZmv0jvnynAGerL-
 

There has been a discussion on this forum about the correct waist belt with photos of a belt which appears slightly different that the Silvermans current item

I did read that these belts were originally pulk belts used to haul pulks with, and the one on sale currently appears to have some webbing straps removed from the belt which suggests it may have possibly been used for this task.

(2) The only item that is missing from this sequence of NSNs to complete the assembly of the rucksack with is the strap that performs the same job as the ‘strap loop’ on the other rucksacks. I wonder if this is that strap, or, if it is genuinely a utility strap of the 58 pattern and PLCE variety.

From Facebook posted photographs the rucksack did come with a backboard of the same material as the SAS/airborne rucksack. Incidentally have you looked at any of the webbing-themed Facebook groups?

I don’t know if you have seen the thread on bushcraftuk.com with the photographs from the French language Raids magazine.

https://bushcraftuk.com/community/threads/arctic-rucksack-royal-marine-h-frame-bergen.92174/

SAS/Airborne + GS Rucksacks

Frame, Packboard 

8465-99-135-2316 MKI

                 135-7135 MKII

                 135-8564 MKIII

Fastener, Loop Strap 

8465-99-135-4093

Harness, Packboard (shoulder strap)

8465-99-135-4094, or

8465-99-135-7305

Strap, Back Support

8465-99-135-7306

Strap, Backboard (load strap)

8465-99-135-7307

 

The shortish straps in your photos look to be the same type as I had for the SAS/Airborne rucksack. 

I have seen items fitted to all rucksack and radio carriers with NSNs in the range 8465-99-772-8177 to 8465-99-772-8179. These straps, belts and back supports are those with the thicker pads and seem to have been primarily intended as a replacement for the ‘44 pattern’ webbing fittings on the GS manpack carrier This ‘upgrade’ seems to be associated with the use of the GS manpack carrier to carry the 81mm mortar.

[mad dan eccles]

I'll have to look through the assorted bits I have that make up the fixtures and fittings for the frames to see what NSN's they have. Most are worn off or illegible but I think some of them can still be read.

If anyone has a 1979 dated frame for the Arctic rucksack going spare, or knows where I can source one dated 79 to go with my 79 dated pack.

Seems to be with the Arctic rucksacks that one can find everything but the frame.

From every one I've seen pictures of they utilise the same loop for the lower half of the shoulder straps as the GS and SAS rucksacks so I reckon the utility straps are the 58 pattern webbing ones which I've seen listed with an NSN of 8465-99-128-7159 

Once I've gone through what's legible on the bits I have for each I'll put up the NSN's.