Wartime Speed limits

[Rootes75]

Just a question, I'm going to paint the speed limit on the tailboard of our 1942 30cwt truck, as it would be in 1942...is it 20mph or 30mph?

I have been told both by different people so far.

[10FM68]

Funnily enough, this was a matter I was discussing with someone only last week - to do with the demise of the large white circle introduced on the rear of all military lorries in UK when blackout restrictions arrived.  By 1942 it had disappeared so you're good to go with the small red writing.

I think the rule was from the 1934 Act - namely vehicles of ULW less than 2 1/2 tons 30mph and heavy goods vehicles (I know heavy! - it's all relative!) was 20mph whether rigid, rigid with a trailer or articulated.  Interestingly, rigid horse boxes were allowed to travel at 30mph - I wonder which stratum of society owned horseboxes, then!!  It wouldn't be the ruling classes by any chance would it? 

But, if you are in the mood for some light reading - the matter was discussed in the House in 1947 regarding military vehicles.  It is nice to see that some debates were as bizarre in those days as they are today!

https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/1947-11-11/debates/e5235187-d413-4187-bb40-c3b674b73c13/ServiceVehicles(SpeedLimit)

 

[Noel7]

2 hours ago, 10FM68 said:

Interestingly, rigid horse boxes were allowed to travel at 30mph - I wonder which stratum of society owned horseboxes, then!!  It wouldn't be the ruling classes by any chance would it? 

In the 1930s horse boxes usually weren't goods vehicles; they were normally built on bus or coach chassis, which hopefully gave the horses a better ride [horses travel standing and are liable to serious injury if they fall down in a confined space]. PSVs with pneumatic tyres were limited to 30mph, hence the limit in the Act for horse boxes on the same chassis.

[10FM68]

Exhibit A!  An Army Horse Ambulance!  Note - no seating or stretchers, suggesting horses do indeed travel standing up!  Perhaps that accounts for their long faces!

[Oh Five]

I am surprised how close the Army Horse Ambulance is to the current crop of small vans used for horse boxes.  These vans came about when driving tests were introduced to tow trailers and drive vehicle exceeding 3500kg GVW.

It looks like this is designed for two horses. The two panels that are swung open behind the cab are to give two stalls for the horses travelling facing backwards.  The right hand of the two panels stops the horse coming down the ramp as you lower it. The windows at the back are for accommodating grooms travelling with the horses.  In the new generation of boxes this can be tack storage or living accommodation. 

If an injured horse is required to be moved and requires support then slings are used to support them and uprights to help them balance.

Here is a link to a company that makes horse ambulance trailers: https://tallyhotrailers.co.uk/product/horse-ambulance/

Unfortunately, most serious horse leg injuries do not have a good outcome.

[LarryH57]

I have photos of early wartime truck, with 20 mph clearly painted on the rear tailboard, as the maximum permitted speed limit. I will post it on here in a few days when I am back home. According to my info the speed limit was not officially increased until 1956, to be 30 mph.

I cannot believe that a wartime truck would actually keep to 20 mph, but the was a official speed to be painted and then there was a war!

Edited August 29 by LarryH57

[norseman 02]

1 hour ago, LarryH57 said:

 

 According to my info the speed limit was not officially increased until 1956, to be 30 mph.

 

I can attest to that having spent my formative years during the 1950's. We lived next to what was then referred to as the North orbital road in Hertfordshire & I can distinctly remember large trucks (there were a lot of 8 wheel rigids on the roads back then) having the figure 20 in a round plate affixed to the rear.

[Rootes75]

Our civilian 1950 Commer has the 20 round yellow speed plate.

[10FM68]

On 8/26/2024 at 12:32 PM, 10FM68 said:

Funnily enough, this was a matter I was discussing with someone only last week - to do with the demise of the large white circle introduced on the rear of all military lorries in UK when blackout restrictions arrived.  By 1942 it had disappeared so you're good to go with the small red writing.

I think the rule was from the 1934 Act - namely vehicles of ULW less than 2 1/2 tons 30mph and heavy goods vehicles (I know heavy! - it's all relative!) was 20mph whether rigid, rigid with a trailer or articulated.  Interestingly, rigid horse boxes were allowed to travel at 30mph - I wonder which stratum of society owned horseboxes, then!!  It wouldn't be the ruling classes by any chance would it? 

But, if you are in the mood for some light reading - the matter was discussed in the House in 1947 regarding military vehicles.  It is nice to see that some debates were as bizarre in those days as they are today!

https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/1947-11-11/debates/e5235187-d413-4187-bb40-c3b674b73c13/ServiceVehicles(SpeedLimit)

 

To add to that, I have just had a look at Dick Taylor's 'Warpaint' Vol 4.  He offers the following:

Early war - following the civilian practice of black numbers 3 1/2" high on a 9" white disc.  From around 1942 red writing painted direct onto the tailboard with 3 1/2" high numbers, then a horizontal line and then 'M.P.H also in red in 2 1/2" high numbers.

He offers the following limits:

Cars & Motorcycles - 40

Trucks (all types) - 35

Other load carriers not exceeding 3 tons, coaches and troop carriers - 30

Load carriers exceeding 3 tons & tracked vehicles - 20

Tracked Tractors & Tank Transporters - 15

Wheeled tractors - 25

With 'trucks' being a defined group in those days (becoming lorries once over 30cwt) then 15cwts would, it seems from that, have a speed limit of 35.

Interestingly, even in the 1980s certainly, and I don't know how long for thereafter, convoys were still planned and calculated at 20 miles in the hour (MIH).

Regarding the white disc - early war, of course, many military vehicles complied with national blackout regulations and carried much larger white circles on their tailboards.  Often the speed limit was stencilled on top of this in black.  The practice didn't go abroad, it seems and died out sometime in 41 or, perhaps 42.

They can be seen in this photo which is, I believe, courtesy of the Tank Museum:

To add to that: my 1996 copy of The Staff Officers' Handbook offers planning data as follows:

Planning purposes for road columns in daytime 40km/hr on good roads and 30 on bad.  Night time figures 20 and 15 respectively.  So, actually, military vehicles in convoy move(d) a lot slower than one might imagine, but, of course, that was a consistent speed.  Pass times (the time difference between the first vehicle in a convoy passing a point and the last) for a battlegroup of 200 vehicles  with 100 metre vehicle spacing at 30km/h was 48 minutes, making no allowance for gap times between packets which had to be added!  All good stuff (if a bit off topic - for which I apologise!)

There is a very good U-Tube video doing the rounds showing an RASC convoy bringing relief to Paris (I think it was) - comprising mainly Mack NM/NRs and it is surprising how slowly, but how steadily the convoy is moving.

 

 

 

Edited August 29 by 10FM68

[Rootes75]

26 minutes ago, 10FM68 said:

From around 1942 red writing painted direct onto the tailboard with 3 1/2" high numbers, then a horizontal line and then 'M.P.H also in red in 2 1/2" high numbers.

And that is my plan with the Commer, the red painted details on the tailboard.

[Noel7]

1 hour ago, 10FM68 said:

Regarding the white disc - early war, of course, many military vehicles complied with national blackout regulations and carried much larger white circles on their tailboards.  Often the speed limit was stencilled on top of this in black.  The practice didn't go abroad, it seems and died out sometime in 41 or, perhaps 42.

They can be seen in this photo which is, I believe, courtesy of the Tank Museum:

No military personnel visible, but several civilians looking at vehicles, an untidy heap of motorcycles, and no visible markings on bridge plates [which might be just be down to the photograph's processing]. It does look like a post-war disposal sale, possibly of vehicles which had never left the UK, perhaps? If so, the presence of white discs on vehicle rear bodies, but not underneath the body or on the rear differential, is interesting. Did vehicles in the UK keep the original white circle as a de facto convoy marking, as well as a blackout marking, after it had changed for vehicles in combat areas, possibly?

[10FM68]

2 hours ago, Noel7 said:

No military personnel visible, but several civilians looking at vehicles, an untidy heap of motorcycles, and no visible markings on bridge plates [which might be just be down to the photograph's processing]. It does look like a post-war disposal sale, possibly of vehicles which had never left the UK, perhaps? If so, the presence of white discs on vehicle rear bodies, but not underneath the body or on the rear differential, is interesting. Did vehicles in the UK keep the original white circle as a de facto convoy marking, as well as a blackout marking, after it had changed for vehicles in combat areas, possibly?

The photo I enclosed is of a very early war, perhaps 1940, vehicle depot.  The civilians in the picture will be staff.  It's actually a gem of a photo - full of detail including very clear camouflage patterns, early Matadors, a rare appearance of a Guy Lizard Armoured Command Vehicle, Guy 15 cwts etc etc.

The white circles on the tailboards weren't related to the military convoy white patches, circles or differentials which were exclusively military.  The large white circles on the backs of both good and public service vehicles (and others, I'm sure) were simple British blackout measures to make vehicles more easily spotted in the dark.  It is related to the white bumpers and lines along mudguards and running boards on cars.  They weren't used by the forces abroad - neither the BEF nor later.  That is not to say they never appeared on the continent - we all know that you never say never with anything to do with the military, but they weren't required and should have been painted over prior to deployment into an operational theatre.  When you do see them in photos - often on staff cars, British, Canadian or US the photo will invariably have been taken in the UK.  Here's a photo, courtesy of Flickr, of a bus in London similarly marked.

Sometimes the speed restriction was painted directly onto it rather than onto a separate, bespoke 9" white circle.  These were also to the same, national standard used for speed restriction signs on the back of all vehicles and still continue today - though they are, of course, less common now.  The later, red restriction markings were for operational military vehicles and did not conform to the national standard.