Looking for service information for my new Humber Pig

[Andys Landies]

Hello all, I'm looking for some information about my pig in its military service? Its a Mark 1 (15 BK 18) and all I've managed to find is its chassis plate says it was built in 1960 and (a picture from HMVF forum) says it was sold at auction 27th July 1967 and details of it as a gate guard in a museum in the south west (again from this great site). I contacted the Royal Logistics Museum, who told me to contact Bovington as it was armoured and not a 'B' vehicle, Bovvie told me that they don't hold information on Pigs and sent me back to the RLC who then said alot of pig paperwork had been lost? I also tried the National Army Museum but no luck.

Does anyone have any ideas? Id love to find some more history about it to be able to put it back to a specific period in time.

Thanks guys

[wally dugan]

The key cards for the BK SERIES were held a the museum of army transport at beverley The rlc museum took all the records unless they have passed them on

Edited August 3, 2022 by wally dugan

[fv1609]

Andy that Pig has done the rounds a bit, so no longer on display at Brixham. I think I once supplied them with a track rod end.

Can you post the link back to when it cropped up on the forum before as I think I answered the post with all the info I had at the time, so no point in repeating what I posted as it takes a bit of rummaging this end. You know it was sold off for £70 in 1967 for instance?

It is a 'B' Vehicle

If the history card for this has evaporated. You might be able to glean some info if you gently rub down the paintwork on the sloped armour above radiator looking for unit & divisional emblems. Similarly the rear body (but not the doors) may yield something. Don't be disappointed if you find no Union Flag markings front or rear (mid point at apex of armour above door) absence of these would suggest it was not with BAOR.

Hopefully it didn't get shot blasted by a previous owner. Some photos of yours would be good & I can tell you what features are likely to be original or if there are ghastly embellishments by a previous owner. Looking at the Brixham photo the front wings are rather obviously not original.

In your rubbings down look for any stencilling probably in white, these are vehicle depot markings & may yield something. They were meant to be over-painted on issue to a unit. Although sometimes owners find these markings & reproduce them but they then dress up the vehicle with kit depicting a role within a unit, but on active service these markings would never be seen. Large numerals in white paint somewhere on the front of the vehicle not painted with any great finesse would indicate the lot number at Ruddington. 

[Andys Landies]

Thankyou both for sucj quick responses! I appreciate it! 

Yes so 15 BK 18 is now in my hands in sunny Norfolk where i'm hoping to get her road registered and to shows in the not too distant future. Thanks Clive, I remember coming across that thread a few weeks back and couldn't believe that it was in relation to my actual one! The web is a fantastic thing when it wants to be!

I will certainly rub down some of those areas and see for any markings or stencils, the front wings are actually ply and well rotten so i'm going to replace those as they once were with steel and hopefully the back stowage boxes too over the arches. She does run but needs some tinkering but works which is a big bonus and there's a lot of cosmetic work to do on the main with mixture of green, desert sand and black paints been found (obviously the black is from its days at Brixham). No working brakes at present, that's the fun part, stopping!

Here are some pics of her at mine last week! I know now why they call them pigs.... 🙂

[fv1609]

Andy looks as if you have a good basis to work with.

Interesting that the chassis plate has been stamped, this is unusual as it looks as that is the final date of conversion from FV1601 to Pig FV1611. There should also be a narrower plate below the front passenger window also bearing the stamping R.O.F.W.120

So it was made at Royal Ordnance Factory Woolwich serial number 120. The other manufacturers were Sankey and R.O.F. Nottingham. The 3-digit serials for these prefixed S and R.O.F.N. respectively.

Before you charge in with making new front wings bear in mind they have a locker on the front of each wing & underneath supported by diagonal U channels. Wings replaced during damage in NI were of slightly thicker steel, had no lockers & supported underneath by a pair of parallel U channels.

The locker lids are difficult to make, I sold my spares not long ago. But I did see two rough locker lids at a show last month. So you never know what can turn up.

[Andys Landies]

Thanks for that, I hope so too. 

I actually have that plate photographed so included it below, its all very interesting! 

Thanks for the heads up with the storage boxes, I did not know that, I'll look into finding some pictures of the wing-boxes, they may have to be door-less for a while! 🙂 

I'm glad I've found you and your excellent knowledge! 

[fv1609]

That is interesting  as the upper plate shows 169 & the lower one 120.

I think the reason is that the lower one is the SN of the chassis conversion & the upper one is the SN of the bodywork. For instance on trailers the frame has a SN but the body a different SN, sometimes even from a different manufacturer.

[Andys Landies]

Ah great thanks for that, so the chassis could be several years older than the 1960 plate from when it was the original Humber 1 tonne truck? That’s just when it was made to a pig, fascinating stuff!

[wally dugan]

I would like to put a foot note as l have more than a passing interest in the history cards l rang the RLC museum to find out the state first l talked to the lady curator who had not a clue what l was on about then put on to   the lady archivist l enquired was the information on pigs there the cards are held some where else l asked the location she said who was l and what l wanted to know for l explained who and why she became defensive and rude l still did not get a answer but they now know pigs are soft skin vehicles and they have the cards l suggested that more research was needed on their   subject matter This seems to be the norm in modern museum

Edited August 3, 2022 by wally dugan

[Andys Landies]

Hello Wally, thanks so much for doing that, that was very kind of you to enquire and ask the questions. I'm sorry that someone spoke to you with such rudeness, that's not on at all.  I appreciate you spending the time to do that, maybe one day i'll find the card! Cheers, Andy

[wally dugan]

ANDY do not worry just a good job  they never  worked for me in a museum l would have sent them to the workshop to get down and personal with one. Any way clive will have just as much as the RLC but if you want to pay thirty five pounds play their game ask for the history for a humber and give it's BK NUMBER no mention of armour  and l bet you would get it.

REGARDS WALLY

'

[fv1609]

Your Pig was once a Truck 1 Ton (not tonne) GS 4x4 Humber FV1601 delivered on 21/1/54 to 62nd B Vehicle Depot Eglington in Ayrshire part of 6th Vehicle Group HQ Georgetown in Renfrewshire with Receipt Voucher EGL/R/2357 under Contract: CARGO 6/V/6443 Engine No.6682

FV1601 see below

Incidentally the Pig was Struck Off Census on 15/5/67 often people assume the sale date was the SO date. 

PS Well done Wally for following that up. Very often museums have people in charge with all the museum qualifications but know little about the artefacts they are meant to be caring for.

[Andys Landies]

Fantastic, thanks for the digging Clive and Wally! I'm certainly glad I joined HMVF!! That's a great start! What are the chances it was sold off in 1967 and not purchased back by the Army? Did they do well on the civvie sales market? What would a pig be used for?

[fv1609]

I have just entered the ERM for a couple of Pigs I used to own in the RLC search & they hold scans of those, but not unfortunately for yours.

Of the 200 odd Pigs "recovered" in 1972 it seems relatively few were from private owners. Operation Marble to assess the time taken to get the Pigs usable again found that the process took twice as long as expected.

For a good grounding in the story of the Humber FV1600 series look out for this book. But don't pay a silly price.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/384353504933?hash=item597d410ea5:g:yu8AAOSw7-hhJ-d-

or worse still:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/398052163X/ref=olp-opf-redir?aod=1&condition=used&tag=bookfinder-test-b-21

If you can't find any cheaper PM me.

[Andys Landies]

Thanks Clive, some more great info, I'd not heard of Op Marble. I have actually already ordered that book, just waiting on delivery, I'll get read up! For now my pig's history will remain a mystery.

Thanks again

[fv1609]

Yes that will give you a good grounding in FV1600 development. We wrote that 25 years ago & a lot more information has since come to light. For instance I photocopied all the NI REME SITREPS that had any reference to Humbers, this is where I discovered Op Marble. Apart from my own digging & collecting, Wally has come up with some unique material.

PS I think there were only 600 copies printed. The reason being that above this level photographic copyright fees would have made the project uneconomic.

[B series]

Andy, both Clive and Wally have given you some good historical information relating to your Humber, they are good at that and have helped me in the past.  I am the owner of a Humber 1 Ton Cargo, Champ and Stalwart so know my way around a tool box. I also own an extensive collection of publications relating to these vehicles. Depending on your location should you need some local expertise or a chat over a coffee I am located in Wymondam Norfolk and anything with a B series engine is always welcome.

[fv1609]

Andy I have recovered these pics from an old thread on another site that I took part in.

[fv1609]

This is a page from a Ruddington catalogue annotated by J.Hirst himself. No winch & good tyres!

 

 

[ltwtbarmy]

Look at the poor thing in the link below (scroll down). Perfect wings, rear side lockers, just left for the vandals to do their worst. Makes me really grit my teeth when someone like Andy here buys a dog of an example to spend so many hours restoring it, whilst others have a good condition example, and just leave it to rot. Simply no justice in this world. Anyone know this one’s history? 
 

https://www.28dayslater.co.uk/threads/raf-hethel-norfolk-august-2020.133698/

Edited August 14, 2022 by ltwtbarmy

[fv1609]

Yes it is a shame, but the lockers are not original.

The moderator says it is a veteran of N.Ireland, there is no evidence to suggest that, particularly still with the Warner socket & the early tow hitch. He is wrong to say they were manufactured by Rootes, the chassis was, but the Pig armoured body was manufactured by ROF or Sankey. Aspects of the body suggest this was made by ROF.

[Andys Landies]

Thanks for all your help and sticking the original thread back on here Clive. I've got your book now and enjoying it immensely. Such a shame about the pig at Hethel (which is quite local to me), surely a deal is to be had there with the owner?

Ill keep you updated on my pigs progress.

Thanks again, Andy