Charging Fault on FFR Series 3 109

[Kansas City]

Well, I am a Brit who moved from the UK to Kansas City and eventually shipped over my FFR Series 3 . The shipping did involve some hassle with HMRC as it turns out even a 40 year old Ex Military LR needs an export license- a learn for me and the company I entrusted to do the shipping.

On arrival  in the USA I found the flashers not working and turns out whilst in storage in the UK the batteries were charged  off the vehicle and replaced with the cables reversed making it a rare + earthed FFR. The charging system is now not working and I have Clive Elliots  all charged up article which is helpful. I was wondering though if any experts know which components are most likely to be fried by having the polarity reversed ? Also is there anyone offering a repair service rather than track done old stock.

Thanks in advance . 

[fv1609]

KC I would inspect the state of the BCK relay in the generator panel as this is what links the generator to the batteries. (If the supply to the radio batteries had been reversed there is fused protection but not for the vehicle system).

[Kansas City]

Thanks Clive, 

I will do the relay check. 

I have 24V on the brown and yellow wire from charging light to the generator when the ignition is but engine not running so power is flowing  through the generator. 

Thanks again 

[fv1609]

2 hours ago, Kansas City said:

I have 24V on the brown and yellow wire from charging light to the generator when the ignition is but engine not running so power is flowing  through the generator.

KC do you mean that the charge warning light illuminates with the ignition on but without engine running? If so then it is likely it is earthing correctly through the field winding.

If you mean that you are just getting 24v on the bulb lead only means that the other side is connected to the ignition circuit. It is not an indication of any performance from the generator.

[Kansas City]

Thanks Chris,

The charge warning light has both a positive ignition feed and also a positive feed from the Generator with just the ignition on( Oil warning light is on)  so does not come on. If I apply an earth to the brown and yellow side the light comes on so the bulb  is good . I  get positive at the Generator side without the light one but without the engine running  hence my conclusion I have +ve both sides. This suggests to me a Diode is blown but not sure which one/s  The FFR has the FV760740 Generator and the No 9 Mk4 Panel which in your All Charge Up says there are diodes to protect the system if the battery terminals are reversed  at the Battery relay - as this  has happened  the diodes should have protected the panel. That said a friend got me the FFR so I have never seen the charging light work so the Charging system may have been US before the battery leads were swapped.  > I  am not great on electronics but am working through your comprehensive article. 

Thanks so much for your help

 

[ruxy]

The good news is you don't have a integrated CD radio or engine microprocessor .    No trafficators - so you blew a 24 volt HELLA  flasher unit of transistorized version (the alloy box can under bonnet).  A genuine HELLA would be best replacement , there is a 24v universal by Durite & IIRC Lucas do one.

I understand just starting batteries fitted,  the (if fitted)  2 or 4 qty. NATO tank batteries are obviously well protected for just this.  

So that just leaves the BIG genny (alternator) ,   it's a while since I had one in bits, find it hard to believe this has no fusible-link protection for just such an event.   I would open the genny carefully and look for scorching or an obvious component failure , like a small bit of plate that has been blasted. Lighting can't have been affected and I can't think of anything else that would be if switched.   

[Kansas City]

Thanks Fulltilt, 

Interestingly whilst the indicators   came on but did not flash when the vehicle was incorrectly + earthed once the polarity was corrected back to negative earth the indicators and hazard flashing all work fine. I am trying to work out where the positive feed going from the alternator to the charging light is coming from when the ignition is on but not running. I suspect a diode  in the alternator. That Said I have the Mk4 generator panel which is supposed to have protection for starting and radio battery lead reversal. 

I am building myself up to running the diagnostic tests in Clive Elliots very informative article.

Thanks 

James

[ruxy]

I am QUOTE   39 page 30 , for USER MANUAL   issued March 1980 for the 3/4 ton and is probably last for S3.   What is your VRM or date of manufacture ?

The red warning light adjacent to the multiple gauge  when the generator fails to charge or the generator fails to charge or the generator charging rate is low.  It will glow when the ignition is switched on and the engine is stationary or running slowly and will go out when the engine speed rises.

So the charge lamp works the same for FFR as 12 volt GS - sounds sensible.   Opertion will be same as a 12 volt Lucas type ACR of any size that is "Machine sensing"  , the other type is 'battery sensing'.  A 12 volt battery sensing would have a loose white wire to the battery.    The 24 volt will also be machine sensing - almost certain.    Can't find my blown up FFR wiring diagram just now, using just the book.

Use the coloured diagram ,  FFR  EARLY or LATE  (109" is identical to Lightweight @ same time-line)  depending on truck age, the originals have a odd error and ISTR the trafficator flasher unit area was a little incomplete when the presses rolled.

http://www.land-rover-lightweight.co.uk/lrl m.html

 

 

[Kansas City]

Hi Everyone,  After sorting other issues with the Series 3 I am back looking at the charging system. I have followed Clive's testing flow chart as follows . 

Test one takes me to test 1(d)  and I am stuck here. The test says to check for an open circuit between the double connector at rear of instrument panel( white lead) but I cannot see the double connector. Am I right in interpreting this test as it is a test of continuity from the white wire feeding the charging light to socket E on connector 2 ? Help with the connector is appreciated. 

I took a picture of the wiring at the back of the instrument panel and the wired wrapped in black tape is a concern.

I am making progress titling  ( registering)  The Land Rover which is not easy as USA and UK Vins are not aligned so you have to prove at Highway Patrol the age- never a dull moment. 

 

[fv1609]

1 hour ago, Kansas City said:

Test one takes me to test 1(d)  and I am stuck here. The test says to check for an open circuit between the double connector at rear of instrument panel( white lead) but I cannot see the double connector. Am I right in interpreting this test as it is a test of continuity from the white wire feeding the charging light to socket E on connector 2 ?

I took a picture of the wiring at the back of the instrument panel and the wired wrapped in black tape is a concern.

Yes you are correct. The white lead passes to the charge warning light then to another white lead then it meets a connection to then change to a brown/yellow lead to socket E.

Don't worry about the 6 white wires going to the black tape, they all meet in a fixed "cinch" connector. I can't remember where it is fixed but the important thing is that the connections inside are good & well insulated from the chassis as this white feed system is not fused.

[Kansas City]

Thanks Clive, 

I do not have continuity from the Brown and yellow lead to connector E  on the plug which goes into the control box from the shunt box. I do have 12v + on the brown and yellow lead at the charging bulb with ignition off. 

I do not have any connectors on the dash just a white to the charging bulb and the brown and yellow off this. 

I guess I need to make a connection brown and yellow into the shunt box from charging light  to pick up the connection  to the generator panel . The wiring diagram doesn't show the brown/ yellow going into the shunt box but it has to

Thanks

James . 

 

[fv1609]

I'm a bit rusty as I wrote this some years ago. But most installations have the brown/yellow that goes to a connector to connect to a yellow Unipren wire that travels into the shunt box. It makes no connection with anything in there but merely travels out through another port to socket E of gen panel. I can't remember how far along the line the connector is that facilitates the brown/yellow change to yellow.

 

 

[Kansas City]

Thanks Clive, this is very kind of you,

I am pleased to report that the brown and yellow has a break somewhere and when I replace this I get a charging light on  when the ignition is switched on which goes almost out when the engine is running. The brown and yellow goes to.a yellow in the shunt box. See pictures below of the difference of light brightness . I am not much good at electrics but I assume the very faint glow means one side of the light has more voltage than the other so a small current is flowing through the bulb . I do get slightly more volts at the battery 25.2 vs 24.9 when the engine is running. 

Does this mean the alternator is not working as it should as I would expect a higher voltage difference. 

Thanks

James 

[fv1609]

54 minutes ago, Kansas City said:

I do get slightly more volts at the battery 25.2 vs 24.9 when the engine is running. 

Do you mean the static battery voltage is 24.9 but with the engine running it rises to to 25.2?

With the everything running & charging properly it should be more like 28v. But maybe with this charging fault the batteries are rather drained & not yet had a chance to absorb a full charge?

Incidentally it is always worth checking the individual voltage of each battery. If they don't match then try to bring them up to scratch & charge each battery separately in turn with a 12v charger.

Even so the overall battery voltage is not matching the voltage from the alternator output & this imbalance of course is what makes the charge warning light glow.

I don't know whether you have a Gen Panel No.9 Mk 3   & have twin ammeters or the Gen Panel No.9 Mk 4 with a single ammeter just for the radio batteries.

If you have twin ammeters it is very handy to monitor the charge current to the vehicle batteries. If you have a single ammeter & without rigging up a voltmeter, you have to rely on the charge warning light extinguishing or at least dim as you rev the engine. Of course it will not extinguish unless the batteries are fully charged. Or you could switch on the headlights & see them brighten as you rev.

It is important to remember that the alternator output is not negative earth. Negative is isolated it only becomes earthed at the generator panel Mk 3 or if you have the panel Mk 4 it is earthed to the shunt box case.

So it it is very important that you have a clean tight earth connection on the Mk 3 panel or in the case of a Mk 4 panel that the shunt box is properly earthed.

Earth strap problems are so easy to miss as people tend to start thinking of darker diagnostic faults & sadly pull apart wires & components that have no faults.

Good luck you seem to be making progress & taking the trouble to follow the guidance. I regularly get emails from people who say I can't read all that stuff, my FFR Landy (of whatever type that might be?) isn't charging, what do you think it might be : (

 

[Kansas City]

Thanks Clive, 

Good news I have 28.8 Volts at the shunt having cleaned the shunt  earth and batteries charging - Need to sort out new brown  and yellow wire to the shunt but it is great progress- Thanks so much for your help. I have the Mk4 panel so only one ammeter. 

I could not have managed this with your help .

Best wishes

James 

[fv1609]

James well done for pursuing the problem & satisfying for both of us! It is nice to hear of your successful result, so often I give advice to never learn the outcome.

[Kansas City]

Thanks Clive, 

Without your  reference material and your helpful messages I doubt it would have been fixed and I would be down the 12V conversion path !

Thanks again. Best wishes

James