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23 hours ago, andy brown said:

I suppose I better contact the US archives and inform them that the Luftwaffe aerial pics they have they should skip....

I didn’t say the aerial photos.

I only referred to the hand drawn illustrations. 

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23 hours ago, andy brown said:

I suppose I better contact the US archives and inform them that the Luftwaffe aerial pics they have they should skip....

I really don't want to argue with anyone , but should point out that if you go back to the first thread on chobham on the 24 / 9/ 21 you will see the full front cover of a booklet I published dated in the corner seven years ago which included my pretty pictures one of which depicts the tanks on tank hill ,seven years later  you take me to task on evidence ,and in the same breath admit to the world that you knew of the tanks (  seeing them from staple hill ) to say nothing of the Luftwaffe pics showing the whereabouts of the concrete foundations of the pods ,yes my pretty pictures may not have captured your imagination that said you appear to be digging a hole for your self .I will certainly stand aside should a more exacting suggestion be put forward on anything regarding the common that I may have promoted .

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I think you will find Andy, its the Conspiracy Theory tone and the "feeding bread crumbs" manor of the posts that cause the problem. there are some serious military historians and serious collectors on this site that dedicate their lives and incomes to the cause. playing the whole "victim" of a conspiracy line just winds people up. facts with back up count. and in one of your posts you got it about the tanks being there. that would have happened earlier probably without the game playing.

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59 minutes ago, Ashcollection said:

I think you will find Andy, its the Conspiracy Theory tone and the "feeding bread crumbs" manor of the posts that cause the problem. there are some serious military historians and serious collectors on this site that dedicate their lives and incomes to the cause. playing the whole "victim" of a conspiracy line just winds people up. facts with back up count. and in one of your posts you got it about the tanks being there. that would have happened earlier probably without the game playing.

Ok drip feeding , that maybe how you see it from the outside but it rather depends on one's circumstances ,I do not have a computer nor do I have broad band ,I use a bog standard phone ,that has its limitations ,because when you find yourself over eighty after half an hour your looking at three screens .

As for conspiracy well your the one that keeps throughing  this up ,and as I'm not finished yet let's see if there is a punch line .before you jump to conclusions .

Waterbeach recieved the same treatment and yes if I were a professional archivist i would no doubt tread the line that you expect to be fitting for the forum ,but I'm not ,

As for the common it's been bulldozed flat ,replanted ,re invented , and manicured into a presentable package suitable for the twenty first century ,I've known it for 65years  and seen it slowly disappear and wrongly it would seem try to highlight a few days in the countries history that some would have me forget...... conspiracy .....V.....money......

 

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On 10/11/2021 at 7:32 PM, andy brown said:

I really don't want to argue with anyone , but should point out that if you go back to the first thread on chobham on the 24 / 9/ 21 you will see the full front cover of a booklet I published dated in the corner seven years ago which included my pretty pictures one of which depicts the tanks on tank hill ,seven years later  you take me to task on evidence ,and in the same breath admit to the world that you knew of the tanks (  seeing them from staple hill ) to say nothing of the Luftwaffe pics showing the whereabouts of the concrete foundations of the pods ,yes my pretty pictures may not have captured your imagination that said you appear to be digging a hole for your self .I will certainly stand aside should a more exacting suggestion be put forward on anything regarding the common that I may have promoted .

you are quoting yourself (which also seems to be a reccuring thing which makes your posts quite hard to follow) so its hard to know who you are aiming that comment at.

 

BUT, i didn't say anything about remembering the tanks, that was another member of the forum posting in this thread (terryB)

I personally think the common was used for all sorts of military uses, lots of areas were in WW2 and immediately after, and with it so near to the longcross test grounds etc it would seem utterly logical that it was used continuously for many years. 
I dont buy into the conspiracy theory though that its being deliberately covered up, its just been forgotten.

Stoke park in guildford was a large defended area, tank ditches, spigot mortars, dragons teeth, flame fougasse the lot - 90% of it is gone as time has moved on.

 

The massive air raid shelter under the car park up the road in guildford is kept firmly locked by the council, and visitors arent allowed - not a conspiracy, its in dangerous and unstable condition.

the sports centre at guildford college was the sub regional HQ in the cold war and no trace exists apart from a basement with very thick walls, its just been forgotten about and time has moved on.

Same with the cold war fall out shelter under the council offices in woking.

same with 'montys hideout' under reigate hill.

I jsut dont buy into the deliberate government conspiracy, sorry.

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 I am inclined to agree with you , conspiracy seemed to have got attached way back in early waterbeach but then thats what it was ,certain parties conspired to hide for whatever reason 326 tanks , an issue that many found hard to swallow ,so from then on the rule of the day was Conspiracy .......but I wouldn't loose sleep over it due to the fact that like waterbeach the story isn't over yet....

As for Stoke park well there wasn't much that that people didn't know about the place after ww2 ,unlike chobham common where they are still in denial that the army was out there ( they being the local authorities )

Doubt very much if the children of Stoke park get much opportunity to play with Asbestos ,or paddle in oil filled ditches ,but they haven't got an International Nature reserve .

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Although it was not my intention to feature the previous pics of asbestos and oil , as it did not I thought fit in the general scheme of things ,only included as a response to the previous post, but having done so should it be met with disbelief that the pics are of chobham common I thought it best to identify the whereabouts of both ,the asbestos is part of the material from the installation near to the Windsor road and several hundred yards south of the Victoria memorial ,most of the material appears to have been bulldozed north down a bank into a hollow adjacent to the Windsor road car park ,the oil covers a area South west of ship hill or north of the Victoria memorial  ,here I had found foundations of buildings in what I took to be a compound as there are the remains of the pre war pebble dash lampposts along with a great deal of buried pipework some of which traces back to the Windsor road ,at a guess some sort of pumping station ..

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IMG_20211011_152126615.thumb.jpg.6ed9ad40bffea6626a54f26a8f83899e.jpgThese pictures of what appears to be some sort of aggregate I recovered from the common around 2012, around the time of finding the landmine strikers ,for some ten years prior to this I would walk the dog out on the common a couple of times a week in the area close to the tank factory ( Burma road) as our workshop was down the road in lyne the dog a cross staff Pitbull was our security guard being close by to a number of traveller sites we suffered a number of costly nocturnal visits ,the dog whilst considered a member of the family was the right tool for the job hence the common which kept him out of contact with people and inquisitive dogs as his version of playfulness was likely to get me in trouble.At that time to me the common was just where I took the dog not paying that much attention to the place ,but with regular visits just as with anywhere things become familiar ,and one thing that had done so we're the strange "what looked like strange upturned dinner plates " roughly five or six foot across quite a number lay hidden in the brush but on one stretch of path one would walk across three that lay in line , they had an almost marble appearance and when damp had no coefficient of friction  if stepped on ,

2012 now out there doing a bit of metal detecting couple of months passed before I realised the dinner plates were missing not that it stood as important at the time ,probably a year later I was detecting in the corner next to the railway line under some pine trees and would brush away the needles with my foot when I uncovered a piece of dinner plate ie as the pics....,next time I visited the heath  manager I asked him about the missing dinner plates ,answer ..probably crushed by the tractor at some time,...well didn't swallow that as I had not seen any evidence of the remains, did though mention that I had found some large pieces over by the railway , week later back in same area it looked like the whole  place had seen a buck rake recently,not a slither of  what I had seen couple weeks before was left .

What was so important about the dinner plates ? Just to see the reaction I mentioned to one of the ground staff I met out on the common had they seen any of the material I described and showed them the lump I had from the fir trees ,four days later got call from persons unknown would I mind returning the stone , why? We might need it for display purposes !!!! Said you already have three ton of it ..line goes dead....

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  • 2 weeks later...

If I relate to the facts as they occured I cannot be condemned for distorting the facts ,that it doesn't suit some is expected and could quite get worse from their point of view .

It was open to speculation as to the purpose of the dinner plates although by their composition I had a good idea what had contributed to their unusual texture , I approached a firm that is qualified In the examination of aggregates and soils asking if they could examine the sample with the intention of discovering what if any chemicals lay within .

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Many years ago 50s I had the misfortune of visiting on a number of occasions one Mr Creech at his depot in Southall goods yard or adjacent to, Mr Creech specialised in the manufacture, mixing of caustics ,solvents and acids in a large building without a roof ,old engine shed I'd presumed ,he moved various coloured caustic powder from one bay to another using a e27n fordson entombed in a rusting hulk of a chaside frame , as the clouds of caustic blew about the yard everything was in a form of prehistoric decay ,brickwork,concrete,metal ,even Mr Creech who's stumps of green teeth stood as testament to the hazards of his occupation ,it was our job on occasions to breath life back into his old chaside hulk replacing where poss; with second hand parts whiçh had its problems as you were lucky to find a bolt head that didn't look like a rivet , in one corner of the yard there was a stack ,more a heap of glass carboys in rotting metal frames ,hydracloric, sulfuric , it was all there or the remains of, most were cracked some upside down the ground therein smoking and throthing ,a bank of clay some two foot high had been placed around the circumference of this evil smelling bog of acid which in places had coagulated with the concrete with the whole in a reddish burnt umber with white tear stains , so is the chunk of dinner plate Mr Creech revisited .

PS Mr Creech met his end when starting the chaside could not get the starting handle out of the PTO pulley starter dog when in gear it moved forward and crushed him between the handle and one of the few rsjs still standing....

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ok so you have found a site where they mix chemicals to produce smoke or a chemical waste burn pit. still not getting your angle haha you could have said this at the start.

"If I relate to the facts as they occured I cannot be condemned for distorting the facts ,that it doesn't suit some is expected and could quite get worse from their point of view"

you are still trying to put the Spooky take on the subject. i said "spooky" as its halloween haha.

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It would seem I was right in pre - empting an intervention ,patience is a virtue ,

In the end it's down to the reader to draw their own conclusions ,here we have a place that for a short time was thrown into the maelstrom of war many of its components of operation would have in such a short time frame been cobbled together in a vain attempt to repel an expected invasion , by now the overwhelming odds held by such a well oiled adversary would have been demonstrated on a daily basis much to the despair of the government .faced with an enemy that could drive across Northern Europe in a week and flatten all in its path what chance did we have in an island that a train could travel the length of in twelve hours , everything had to be on the table although given the opportunity it would have a lot better if the fight could take place on other territory rather than our own but now it was to late ..

Within Winstons speeches to the nation was an aspect of (if we go down they come with us) no mention of how that would happen although he being no stranger to the use of chemical weapons was not going to reveal his hand rather prepare for the worst with what ever you have in hand .

Stockpiles of mustard gas and lewisite were plotted up across southern Britain ,one such example of just how much came to light in the early fifties where the royal navy at the time were in need of a large capacity vacuum pump ,ministry of supply had.one on the books at a place called Lords bridge in Cambridgeshire ,navy lads dispatched to recover said pump only to find that it was still piped up to an underground tank in the grounds of the complex , worthy of a check before the removal of the pump they found the underground silo contained 250 tons of liquid mustard gas which was eventually decanted taken to swinderbury  by rail to be destroyed ,Bramley Hampshire is another example but that is so bad they would rather forget about it ,I've no doubt that there are many others around the country as yet to come to light .

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  • 2 months later...

I would just head to the National Archives at Kew. Most places are unknown to the locality, subject to oral histories which become deep routed within a community based on subjective interpretations. This is the same with local level museums and local records offices, they contain limited data. If an area was used, at any stage, the war diaries, or in the case of WW2, cabinet minutes, or WD orders will exist. There are very few real mysteries of WW2 in regards to UK maneuvers, it is just the path of least resistance is localised research, not archival, which is laborious and takes time. 

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13 hours ago, paul connor said:

I would just head to the National Archives at Kew. Most places are unknown to the locality, subject to oral histories which become deep routed within a community based on subjective interpretations. This is the same with local level museums and local records offices, they contain limited data. If an area was used, at any stage, the war diaries, or in the case of WW2, cabinet minutes, or WD orders will exist. There are very few real mysteries of WW2 in regards to UK maneuvers, it is just the path of least resistance is localised research, not archival, which is laborious and takes time. 

Very true about  the  "oral histories and Subjective interpretations" I ran a machine shop out in the country side for a company that did interesting work., at a random party at a local farm once I spent a couple of hours earwigging a conversation of a group talking about the "Bomb Factory" and all the secret dangerous stuff they did and weather it was illegal or not! haha. It was far more interesting than the MOD work we really did. 

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13 hours ago, paul connor said:

I would just head to the National Archives at Kew. Most places are unknown to the locality, subject to oral histories which become deep routed within a community based on subjective interpretations. This is the same with local level museums and local records offices, they contain limited data. If an area was used, at any stage, the war diaries, or in the case of WW2, cabinet minutes, or WD orders will exist. There are very few real mysteries of WW2 in regards to UK maneuvers, it is just the path of least resistance is localised research, not archival, which is laborious and takes time. 

Thank you for your advice ,I agree with all that you say unfortunately I am as welcome at the N/A as would be a swarm of locust ,this due to not any wrong doing ,more from outside interference into the  inscrutable reputation of the N/A by persons not within that organisation with the power to be able to  determine what gets red by who and when , 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Just to tidy up a couple of loose ends before I proceed , my sketches that I put on in September of last year were either as I remember the common in the fifties or from deducing that existing evidence of structures along with gpr evidence that identified underground service lines that served between the unidentified structures helped to enable a picture of the objectives and use that the common was put to.

The pic with the red car was an area where tanks would cross the road from the tank factory on to the common .in the pic which is looking south toward Woking  the tank factory would have been behind you as you look towards woking , 1974 ish saw the M3 plough straight across the common splitting the tank factory from. the common so what is in my pic with the red car no longer exists ..

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The above picture is of a recently erected monument  in respect of a number of people who had been laid rest in unmarked graves at St Jude's cemetery in Englefield Green Surrey  these were serving members of th armed forces in ww2, few were local many from overseas ,when I visited it partly out of.curiousty and it being quite local I was rather taken aback by a regimental name that jumped out of the stone at me that of the Welch regiment a regiment I had referred to earlier in this thread the member of this not often heard of and certainly not local regiment  coming from Powys in Wales was a sergeant  , I found that he was a 41year old Irish American who had signed up with the Welch regiment home guard around 1940 ,earlier I had pointed out that this home guard regiment had arrived in 1940 at Chobham Common some coincidence to find one of its members still here albeit in a unmarked grave.

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Geographically the cemetery is just over 3 miles as the crow flies ,however next door to the cemetery up until recently stood a small cottage hospital and what I've read regarding this place prior to ww2 inferred that it was strapped for cash and as a charitable organisation had little in it to compare with a general hospital citing that its operating table was a metal bench, now as I do not have any information that determines the.cause of death of any of the residents in the unmarked graves I can at least establish that along with the the Powys home guard the Irish American was at the Chobham camp in 1940 and during their stay made many visits to the South downs , the question is what was the reason for them being at the camp , as the Luftwaffe pics show it amongst other things was a smoke school .

There were many smoke schools although details of their existence seems to have been conveniently forgotten . At the point of an imminent invasion what would be the point of sending the 1500 home guard to the South downs an area which one would consider to be the initial killing Fields in the face of a seaborne invasion , as one could assume that the Powys detachment would not have been the only home guard units that had visited the South downs at this time , with a desimated army recently plucked from the jaws of the enemy at Dunkirk it would have been a matter that anything that would repel an invading force would have been on the table ,as it was no secret that Winston was not averse in the use of chemical weapons having used them in protecting the British expeditionary force in Russia and possibly in Iraq with his determination that none should assert their will upon these islands.

So was it that these willing souls were part of a last ditch attempt (if it came to that)  to activate the last resort in which they had been trained at camps like Chobham.

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A very interesting topic Andy but maybe it's just a case of the passage of time and peoples memories.

I was talking to an old woman, blimey I have just realised it was about 30 years ago, she told me that she used to cycle from her home to the Bank Of England during the war. Well obviously she was barking as we were standing in her home that was just outside Andover. My reply was something like " I bet that took you a long time to get to London every day". Oh no she said it was just down the road. This spiked my interest and I asked her where she used to cycle to and to my astonishment it was about a mile from my house at the time, just outside Andover. After further questioning I decided that when I took the dogs out next I would investigate. As you walked down this small country lane you came to a railway bridge and just before the bridge there was a track that went up so that it was level with the railway line and then it enters some woods, apparently the woods didn't exist then. As you enter the woods there are clear signs of some sort of barrier and beyond this, loads of concrete footings of several different building and what I assume are stepped entrances to air raid shelters, so she wasn't mad after all. Apparently, according the old woman, from the air it looked like a huge lake and the trains used to stop and unload. I couldn't find any evidence and none of older locals remember it but I suppose people didn't talk about it then.

 

Jon

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Thank for your input , I was only small but even then as there wasn't much else to distract you from the reality of the world one lived in, the gulf between now and then is vast , so vast that it seems like another world,  one was reminded at every turn of the "don'ts" don't talk to strangers,don't talk about things you might see like from the top of a bus or on a train journey, Chad was everywhere ,a drawing showing the top of a head two eyes and a long nose peering over a wall beside the head were the fingers clutching the top of the wall ,the message of this was you never know who's watching or listening ,then a whole raft of criminal don'ts for which you could be prosecuted , one such was not to look up to the sky as others might join you out of curiosity other might take flight thinking the enemy in some form is coming and all might panic , the rush to get to the local shop before ten cause then they would be sold out..... Of everything anyway it was all on ration but they still ran out...a V2 landed behind our little street blowing our windows an front doors in and the ARP warden and a constable came down the street telling every one it was just a gas explosion the street was covered in bricks and tiles and dead birds ....no after six years of the don'ts and subversive information every one knew better than to talk about anything a whole generation never forgot and very rarely looked up ,it was still embedded in society in the sixties.     

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Churchill's Spy Files by Nigel West.

"Leakages"  picked up by listeners in pubs etc.     Fines typical for the working class  abt.  £50  (they didn't like to jail women)   for a doctor (they didn't like to jail doctors)  - he got £75.   Others got months of hard labour.   In many parts of the UK - you could buy a house for  £75

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  • 4 months later...
On 1/23/2022 at 10:35 PM, ruxy said:

Churchill's Spy Files by Nigel West.

"Leakages"  picked up by listeners in pubs etc.     Fines typical for the working class  abt.  £50  (they didn't like to jail women)   for a doctor (they didn't like to jail doctors)  - he got £75.   Others got months of hard labour.   In many parts of the UK - you could buy a house for  £75

Hi, have been otherwise engaged recently ,new heart valve fitted. To think 60 years ago I was doing rings and valves on N,E27N tractors along with V8 fords and now medical technology and skilled hands can do the same for the human race .....

Anyway this post is nowhere near finished and it's likely I never get to the truth but as it was my friend Philip Hammond who warned me off of persueing  this as he had done with waterbeach it just added another reason why I should continue digging ..

The following is a picture of a part of the lists of those buried in unmarked graves in st Jude's cemetery englefield green Egham the memorial shown earlier the list is not chronological so it's difficult to determine what or who was interred in ww1 as apposed to ww2  although regiments between came and went along with later additions such as home guard ,RAF, or reme do give a more reliable time line ...IMG_20220619_103630645.thumb.jpg.8b81b7c58db9ae00b9168b2c45ad3df2.jpgIMG_20220619_103630645.thumb.jpg.8b81b7c58db9ae00b9168b2c45ad3df2.jpg

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