MrEd Posted July 18, 2021 Share Posted July 18, 2021 (edited) I have been able to find out a fair bit about my Sankey and Sankeys in general through the RLC museum, posts on here and a Facebook group. and have now restored the trailer, just paint and insignia to do. I managed to get in contact with a chap who remembers the trailer as it followed him around as he moved about the battalion. Trailer was for most of its life with 1 York’s (V) This was part of 15th infantry Brigade which came under the 2nd infantry division. They had a BAOR role. The chap remembers the trailer had a divisional insignia on the back, I asked if he meant regt insignia and he said no definitely div insignia, black square with white but couldn’t remember what the symbol was. My questions are: - would a trailer have had a divisional insignia on it in the 1980’s? - based on the trailer being part of 15 brigade in 2nd division the divisional insignia would have been the black and white crossed keys symbol? - what other symbols/stencils or insignia would have been present? Would the 15th brigade merlin have been present? Or some other stencil denoting 2nd division infantry? There was evidence of somethings stuck on the back but I was unable to uncover what they were unfortunately. I am going for 1980’s era. Anyone able to help? thanks in advance ed Edited July 18, 2021 by MrEd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fv1609 Posted July 18, 2021 Share Posted July 18, 2021 32 minutes ago, MrEd said: would a trailer have had a divisional insignia on it in the 1980’s? Ed although it can be great fun embellishing vehicles & trailers with fancy badges & insignia, I'm afraid your trailer by 1980 would no longer display such attributes. The Defence Review of 1975 set out to develop a "One Army Concept" where TAVR & Regular Units would be treated the same & instructed the removal of signs which were not strictly necessary. This was spelled out in Annex E to CRAOC Bulletin 8/77 and formalised in UKLF Standing Instruction No 79 Sept 1977. So that wef 31 March 1978 these were to be phased out: Formation Heraldic Signs/Badges Arm/Service Identifying Colour Signs. With the formal introduction of IRR paints in Materiel Regulations for the Army Volume 2, Vehicles & Technical Equipment Pamphlet No 3 Painting of Army, Vehicles, Aircraft & Equipment Dec 1980 it was stated that there was little value in painting a disruptive pattern in anything smaller than a 3/4 ton trailer. So I suspect yours would have looked much like this one being towed by a 110 Rover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEd Posted July 18, 2021 Author Share Posted July 18, 2021 1 minute ago, fv1609 said: Ed although it can be great fun embellishing vehicles & trailers with fancy badges & insignia, I'm afraid your trailer by 1980 would no longer display such attributes. The Defence Review of 1975 set out to develop a "One Army Concept" where TAVR & Regular Units would be treated the same & instructed the removal of signs which were not strictly necessary. This was spelled out in Annex E to CRAOC Bulletin 8/77 and formalised in UKLF Standing Instruction No 79 Sept 1977. So that wef 31 March 1978 these were to be phased out: Formation Heraldic Signs/Badges Arm/Service Identifying Colour Signs. With the formal introduction of IRR paints in Materiel Regulations for the Army Volume 2, Vehicles & Technical Equipment Pamphlet No 3 Painting of Army, Vehicles, Aircraft & Equipment Dec 1980 it was stated that there was little value in painting a disruptive pattern in anything smaller than a 3/4 ton trailer. So I suspect yours would have looked much like this one being towed by a 110 Rover. Great info thanks, I am certain it was camo in service (even though that’s ‘wrong’ for a couple of reasons - I spoke with a former corporal in the Bn and he recalls they painted all their trailers camo, and secondly I am only the second owner since it was cast in 1999 and the first I know personally and he did nothing but store it - didn’t repaint it or anything. what I could be seeing is a long since painted over insignia from when the regs changed? thanks ed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fv1609 Posted July 18, 2021 Share Posted July 18, 2021 Yes a lot of trailers did get painted in a disruptive pattern although numerous trials considered it to be of little value on small trailers other than encouraging a good camo mindset in the troops. I notice that your Establishment Code changed from 2855 (= Cargo) to 2853 (=Various roles) this seems to happen particularly when a Water Carriage Pack has been fitted. This was when a water tank access panel was fitted (as you have) to the rear under EMER WHEELED VEHICLES U 207/8 Mod Instr No 10. March 1975 It would be interesting to see what is under that paintwork, it is very likely to be concealing the forbidden badges. I would be tempted not to smooth them away as at some stage you or a subsequent owner may want to depict an earlier era. Besides still being able to see badges painted over gives the trailer a realistic appearance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fv1609 Posted July 18, 2021 Share Posted July 18, 2021 Here is a camo one with some markings removed & still 2855-0747 I assume in original Cargo role & not been converted to 2853-0747 Various role or at least not for a WCP modification. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEd Posted July 18, 2021 Author Share Posted July 18, 2021 (edited) 39 minutes ago, fv1609 said: Here is a camo one with some markings removed & still 2855-0747 I assume in original Cargo role & not been converted to 2853-0747 Various role or at least not for a WCP modification. That’s a great photo, thank you! i wondered what the designation change meant, that’s interesting. I completely agree that less is more regarding insignia, and I am keen to avoid anything ‘unrealistic’ i tried to uncover those areas and clean back the paint but didn’t really find anything, the paint came off in multi layer sheets and I couldn’t remove it 1 layer at a time if you see what I mean. It a lot of areas it flaked right off to the DBG The tub was incredibly rough and wasn’t able to be saved unfortunately, the floor and wheel arches were seperate from the sides!! I fitted a spare tub that doesn’t have the bowser hole - although I saved the flap so *could* reinstate it? I think I will camo it as it was in service, and just put a Union flag on the back like these trailers from the same regt. Maybe even put a random square of vinyl and just paint over it! interesting that the ratio of black to green is wrong as well. Edited July 18, 2021 by MrEd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fv1609 Posted July 18, 2021 Share Posted July 18, 2021 Painting over a patch would be a nice touch. I had a Pig which was BAOR with a Union Flag sticker that was painted over when it was recovered & used for NI. As it was all peeling off I replaced it then painted it over! I was told by a few that "I ought to get the paint off because there is a sticker under there"! "Yes I know!" Camo yes should be black 1/3, green 2/3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEd Posted July 18, 2021 Author Share Posted July 18, 2021 3 minutes ago, fv1609 said: Painting over a patch would be a nice touch. I had a Pig which was BAOR with a Union Flag sticker that was painted over when it was recovered & used for NI. As it was all peeling off I replaced it then painted it over! I was told by a few that "I ought to get the paint off because there is a sticker under there"! "Yes I know!" Camo yes should be black 1/3, green 2/3 will do that then my trailer when I got it was about 50/50 black - I guess some ‘non-adherence’ to the regs did happen. Great stuff, thank you for your help! Do you think I should reinstate the WCp hole? It has no practical purpose for my use now… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxy Posted July 18, 2021 Share Posted July 18, 2021 I have just had a quick look at 6 qty. NT by Pressed Steel Co(Scotland) / Rootes Pressings Ltd. 43EN92 , 08ES30 , ??ES64 or 69 (can't read own writing) 3 I can't get to rear as sardine garaged. Four have coloured decals - mostly peeled off (these seem on the original DBG paint). These all have brass hex. bailers in floor, never converted to bowser flap. Another much later (possibly final contract) SANKEY plated 26GB88 - body construction welded sides slightly different , no floor drain holes but has factory fitted 'transom' flap - these were kept well greased to aid river crossings. The original reflector triangles - all correct positions - I think. All of them purchased approx. 1985 , all at least two coats of DP paint. Of the ones I have been able to check the rear(s) - no decals/markings other than some with painted VRM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEd Posted July 18, 2021 Author Share Posted July 18, 2021 10 minutes ago, ruxy said: I have just had a quick look at 6 qty. NT by Pressed Steel Co(Scotland) / Rootes Pressings Ltd. 43EN92 , 08ES30 , ??ES64 or 69 (can't read own writing) 3 I can't get to rear as sardine garaged. Four have coloured decals - mostly peeled off (these seem on the original DBG paint). These all have brass hex. bailers in floor, never converted to bowser flap. Another much later (possibly final contract) SANKEY plated 26GB88 - body construction welded sides slightly different , no floor drain holes but has factory fitted 'transom' flap - these were kept well greased to aid river crossings. The original reflector triangles - all correct positions - I think. All of them purchased approx. 1985 , all at least two coats of DP paint. Of the ones I have been able to check the rear(s) - no decals/markings other than some with painted VRM. Thanks very much, that’s useful, and backs up what I thought cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fv1609 Posted July 18, 2021 Share Posted July 18, 2021 35 minutes ago, MrEd said: Do you think I should reinstate the WCp hole? It has no practical purpose for my use now… Oh yes part of it's history & a good talking point. It should take you 3 hours according to the EMER & strike out '20' on the MOD plate. It was provided in the event of being required to carry a WCP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEd Posted July 18, 2021 Author Share Posted July 18, 2021 4 minutes ago, fv1609 said: Oh yes part of it's history & a good talking point. It should take you 3 hours according to the EMER & strike out '20' on the MOD plate. It was provided in the event of being required to carry a WCP. Cool thanks, do you have the whole EMER. I will look at the MOD plate - it’s probably already struck out! Although it’s painted over! I will have to remake the retainer for the flap as that had corroded and come off Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fv1609 Posted July 18, 2021 Share Posted July 18, 2021 Yes it's another 3 pages nothing exciting but I'll scan those when I can. Internet here is slow & erratic as we have no broadband. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEd Posted July 18, 2021 Author Share Posted July 18, 2021 thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fv1609 Posted July 18, 2021 Share Posted July 18, 2021 Here you go EMER WV 207-8 No 10.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fv1609 Posted July 18, 2021 Share Posted July 18, 2021 I suspect that all 2855-0747 GS Trailers eventually underwent this modification to become 2853-0747 I have a catalogue of all B & E Vehicles in service dated March 1991, it only lists 2853-0747 It looks as if the Wide Track went through similar changes from GS 2855-0790 to be become Various as 2853-0790 In that catalogue again only the Wide Track Various is listed no sign of Wide Track GS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10FM68 Posted July 18, 2021 Share Posted July 18, 2021 Here's a photo of typical UK-based NT trailers of the period. These are from HQ 19 Inf Bde deploying through Hamburg in the autumn of 1983 for exercises with 2 Div. They have no markings at all and the black paint is added pretty much at the whim of the painter - very often simply avoiding the tricky bits! The camouflage nets and hessian covers are tied on top of the trailers. There seems a lot of camouflage because this formation used complete hessian covers for their vehicles - rolls stitched together with green string - with black lines painted on in a rough brick pattern. These were used in the place of camouflage nets when camouflaged close to buildings - usually the HQ would be located in a "gut" - a German farmstead. The nets were only used when deployed into woods and fields. And, of course, nets were universally augmented by black hessian strips around the lower half of vehicles covering wheels and bogies as well as over windscreens and windows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEd Posted July 18, 2021 Author Share Posted July 18, 2021 2 hours ago, fv1609 said: I suspect that all 2855-0747 GS Trailers eventually underwent this modification to become 2853-0747 I have a catalogue of all B & E Vehicles in service dated March 1991, it only lists 2853-0747 It looks as if the Wide Track went through similar changes from GS 2855-0790 to be become Various as 2853-0790 In that catalogue again only the Wide Track Various is listed no sign of Wide Track GS. Thats excellent, thansk very much Clive. Could 2853-0747 indicate that they were made by various manufacturers? Did each manufacturer (Rootes, Sankey etc) all have different codes originally? Probably not but?? Thanks for your help, much appreciated. jsut writing up all the info i have found out into a history form! thanks Ed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEd Posted July 18, 2021 Author Share Posted July 18, 2021 2 minutes ago, 10FM68 said: Here's a photo of typical UK-based NT trailers of the period. These are from HQ 19 Inf Bde deploying through Hamburg in the autumn of 1983 for exercises with 2 Div. They have no markings at all and the black paint is added pretty much at the whim of the painter - very often simply avoiding the tricky bits! The camouflage nets and hessian covers are tied on top of the trailers. There seems a lot of camouflage because this formation used complete hessian covers for their vehicles - rolls stitched together with green string - with black lines painted on in a rough brick pattern. These were used in the place of camouflage nets when camouflaged close to buildings - usually the HQ would be located in a "gut" - a German farmstead. The nets were only used when deployed into woods and fields. And, of course, nets were universally augmented by black hessian strips around the lower half of vehicles covering wheels and bogies as well as over windscreens and windows. fab photo, actaully several not trailer related interesting things going on in that photo as well! Thanks Ed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEd Posted July 18, 2021 Author Share Posted July 18, 2021 @fv1609 what does the Class 1 and Class 2 refer to on the B card?? Is that associated with the change in code number? Class 1 from 7/66 to 7/73 Class 2 from 7/73 to 7/76 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fv1609 Posted July 18, 2021 Share Posted July 18, 2021 44 minutes ago, MrEd said: @fv1609 what does the Class 1 and Class 2 refer to on the B card?? Is that associated with the change in code number? Class 1 from 7/66 to 7/73 Class 2 from 7/73 to 7/76 It is the Reliability Class based the age of the equipment & is not related to the Establishment Code which is function related. Class 1 for first 60% of planned live Class 2 for next 40% of planned life Class 3 over planned life Planned Life would be laid down in EMPS or EMPL (Equipment Management Policy Statement/Letter) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEd Posted July 18, 2021 Author Share Posted July 18, 2021 thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fv1609 Posted July 18, 2021 Share Posted July 18, 2021 15 hours ago, MrEd said: Could 2853-0747 indicate that they were made by various manufacturers? Did each manufacturer (Rootes, Sankey etc) all have different codes originally? Yes & Yes The Vehicle Code comprised the first part which was the Establishment Code that defined the purpose & role of the equipment. The second part defined the maker & sometimes a particular model or mark. 2855-0711 Pressed Steel Company 2855-0747 Rootes Pressings Ltd There was no Sankey code associated with Establishment Code 2855 for a NT 3/4 Ton I'm afraid. In fact Sankey was only one of about 30 manufacturers of trailers of 1 Ton or less in the 1950s-60s. Yet they all get called Sankeys! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEd Posted August 17, 2021 Author Share Posted August 17, 2021 I have finished this trailer now, I repainted it to the pattern it was in service (it had not been touched since it was demobbed in 1999 - I know the person i got it from and did nothing with it.) I also managed to track down an MT corporal that remembers the trailer from his service - he remembers it because by fluke it followed him when he moved battalions! A couple of before I resisted embellishments and just went for a Union flag on the back and tyre pressure stencils. Nil else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.