1915 Chase truck

[Scrunt & Farthing]

Just to start the ball rolling on identification I offer the following:

1.  The uniform of the soldiers in your second pic (from RP) is from the Royal West Kent Yeomanry; the identifying features being the bandoliers and the spurs.  Thanks to my mate, grandarog for the identification.

2. The bus in the first pic I think is a Commer. I think the clues are the badge on the  scuttle/dash and the chassis cross member behind the starting handle.   Commer had bodies made by Scammell and Nephew.  The transfer for the S&N body can just be seen, offside behind the driver on the seat rail (above rocker panel).

3. The Scammell and Nephew transfer is distinctive. I include a shot of another Commer with an S&N bodymakers transfer for comparison, below the legal lettering, and thus I wonder if the body that was on your Chase is an S&N body.

4. Per the second photo, of the Chase, taken in Kennington, Ashford.  I am not 100% certain whether Ashford buses got absorbed by the East Kent Road Car company (EKRCC) or Maidstone and District (M&D).  Ashford is on the boundary.   The EKRCC formation was on 1st Sep 1916.  The fleet lists at that time, show every bus that it absorbed.  The Chase is not one of them.   

Thus either this was pre-1916; or did not make the absorption (out of service) or is from a company that did not get absorbed (local authority or other) or is part of the M&D area fleet.    I cannot put my hands on the M&D fleet list but it does not get mentioned in Baldock's book on the M&D.   It is possible that the bus could have been operated by BET or its subsidiary BAT.  That needs further thought.

Dave

Edited June 29, 2021 by Scrunt & Farthing

[radiomike7]

At the time the company was actually 'G. Scammell and Nephew'  but I am struggling to read the transfer even by enlarging it. They were based in Spitalfields, London.

[Scrunt & Farthing]

4 minutes ago, radiomike7 said:

At the time the company was actually 'G. Scammell and Nephew'  but I am struggling to read the transfer even by enlarging it. They were based in Spitalfields, London.

Quite right, RM7.  I have just looked at my high res copy and it is only "Scammell and Nephew, and the remainder is out of focus, but the last word looks like "London".

As Steve Wright would say, "no "G"" (if you are a Radio 2 listener that is!)

[Richard Farrant]

1 hour ago, Scrunt & Farthing said:

4. Per the second photo, of the Chase, taken in Kennington, Ashford.  I am not 100% certain whether Ashford buses got absorbed by the East Kent Road Car company (EKRCC) or Maidstone and District (M&D).  Ashford is on the boundary.   The EKRCC formation was on 1st Sep 1916.  The fleet lists at that time, show every bus that it absorbed.  The Chase is not one of them.   

 

Hi Dave,

Looking at a 60 year old Ian Allan book on bus fleets in the South East, there is potted history of East Kent Road Car and Maidstone and District, neither appear to have operated in or to Ashford at that time so possibly a small operator in Ashford who got absorbed into East Kent or M&D later on.

regards, Richard

[Scrunt & Farthing]

1 hour ago, Richard Farrant said:

Hi Dave,

Looking at a 60 year old Ian Allan book on bus fleets in the South East, there is potted history of East Kent Road Car and Maidstone and District, neither appear to have operated in or to Ashford at that time so possibly a small operator in Ashford who got absorbed into East Kent or M&D later on.

regards, Richard

That would make sense, Richard.  As the town is not listed explicitly in the EKRCC list of five companies it absorbed and does not really get a mention by Baldock.  I wondered if it remained independent or operated by the local council.  

A look in Kelly's Directory for 1913 under Omnibus Props. lists one Henry Dew.  Kennington, which is our target LZ.

Graces guide gives us a location and address.  I think this is the location of the garage.  Do you agree, Richard?

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.1666588,0.8874564,3a,75y,133.95h,87.83t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sAtw_cQPXsmzxgy401jOrYQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

And so, on the balance of probabilities I would say Duncan's bus was owned by Henry Dew. Operated from the forerunner of the garage shown above.  The bus stop shown in my pic is just a matter of 200 feet from this garage.  I would guess its a staged photo arranged by Henry Dew, to promote his business at the nearest stop to his garage.

Dave

Edited June 29, 2021 by Scrunt & Farthing

[Richard Farrant]

Dave,

That is a distinct possibility, this was Crouch's garage until recently.

[ayedeeyew]

3 hours ago, Scrunt & Farthing said:

Just to start the ball rolling on identification I offer the following:

1.  The uniform of the soldiers in your second pic (from RP) is from the Royal West Kent Yeomanry; the identifying features being the bandoliers and the spurs.  Thanks to my mate, grandarog for the identification...

 

Dave - unfortunately your friends identification as to regiment is incorrect. They are Royal Artillery (probably RFA, but not impossibly RGA, RHA, etc). Their cap badges are very distinctive, as is their wearing white lanyards on the left shoulder. The 1903 Pattern bandoliers and spurs are common to many regiments, and are nothing specifically tied to the RWKY:

 

[Richard Farrant]

Dave, there is more ......

I found an image on a website of a page from a very old book giving information of the area and found this:

Motor Omnibus

Henry Dew to and from Ashford several times daily

[Dog Blamer]

Please, please tell me that the logbook has survived? I always find id rather sad when you have to go down the route of age related plate but....there is a chance;

KENT
Kent History & Library Centre, James Whatman Way, Maidstone, ME14 1LQ (03000 41 31 31) Email: archives@kent.gov.uk Open Monday to Saturday.
Registers 1904-1974 (Note KN 4488-92 are omitted from the KN register). GIM register D-G 1-1199; HMC registers 1905-20; TP registers (KT and KE) 1923-34; Registers of imported vehicles.

 

Many of the old archive records are in a word CRAP! One of my bikes which luckily was known to the DVLA still retained the original 20's logbook but Dad bought it because we were looking for a vintage bike with a local number. When I approached the records office (it is shown that they have these registers) we were told that they had been lost in a fire so instead I was send a copy from the cancelation book....our bike is in it; taken off the road in 1935. All it shows is reg number, type of vehicle and who had it. Later records from the three letter sequence that survive include the date but zilch about what the vehicle is!

 

Anyone wishing to try and trace a registration mark head here; Kithead Trust | Educational charity set up to collect and preserve material from the transport industries who have a complete list of what survives and where.

[PITT24423]

Finally collected the post 1918 Continental engine which I bought in the summer after being given the heads up about it being advertised on EBAY by a rather marvellous chap from this forum. This engine had survived by being in a dry shed on a generator with the only item missing being the American Bosch mag which is relatively common and easy to find. I’m not sure what HP it is yet and hopefully close to the original as the engine mounts are the same centres as the ones on the chassis. Haven’t been able to check the bell housing ones yet as the truck is buried at the moment 

Edited November 21, 2021 by PITT24423
.more pics added

[mammoth]

Excellent buy. The larger (43/4 x 6") Continental engines of this era had cylinders cast in pairs. There were lots of different arrangements for the ancillaries and governor. For automotive use three point mountings were used, to accommodate chassis twist, often with a circular mount arrangement at the timing case.

[Rootes75]

What a find in such great condition.

[PITT24423]

I think I should of asked in my post “ does anyone have the spec details for this engine “ Guessing that the model is a C4  and because of the patent dates post 1918 and not sure how the date stamp relates being 4 1/8 as I think this could relate to the bore. . This engine could prove to be to small for this project but nether the less it’s had a charmed life and will get used in something and the paint appears to be original. 

Edited November 20, 2021 by PITT24423
.

[mammoth]

I never had any luck trying to get info on early Continental engines. Seems the USA corporate culture was always move forward dump records and ignore the past.

However for comparison I can refer to surviving Brockway catalogue snippets. The C4 4 1/8 bore was used in their 2 1/2 ton K model 1919 and to at least 1923.  36hp. Have valve timing data. However, looking at a 1920 Brockway owners handbook the pictured engine for the K looks nothing like yours!

[67burwood]

Fantastic find 👍👍

[PITT24423]

Just had some info sent to me from the States which has cemented  my plan to use it for this project .

Continental C4  36hp suitable for trucks upto 3 1/2 tons 

bore 4 1/8" (which we knew from the plate ) stroke 5 1/4" with a choice of pistons 5" or 5 1/4" long no indication why  

[Minesweeper]

Great - everything moving in the right direction!

 

[andypugh]

1 hour ago, PITT24423 said:

with a choice of pistons 5" or 5 1/4" long no indication why  

Possibly a choice of compression ratio, if the difference is in the crown-to-gudgeon-pin distance rather than just a longer skirt. 

 

[nz2]

Referring back to the Commer Car bus, does anyone have any notes as to when wooden spokes were replaced with metal spokes. We have recovered a back axle for a chain drive Commer Car that has bearing caps the same as shown in the bus photo. The wooden spokes are substantial as built for the heavier loading rate.  

[mammoth]

Only an observation - the USA was using wood wheels well into the 20's parallel with cast steel while in the UK the transition was well underway by 1012 and 1914 is about the latest. As in the case of Thornycroft the shortage of steel casting capacity during the war didn't push manufacturers back to wood, instead they went to fabricated plate style.

[nz2]

Thanks Mammoth. I support your comments. I'm hoping someone  is able to provide some data on Commer Cars in particular.

 Doug

[mammoth]

Refer to page 15 of the Commer Story by Geoff Caverhill. Photo of one of the first imports to NZ (Oamaru) in 1913, probably a heavier model than yours as it looks to have protruding hub caps. The chain cases were introduced on heavier models in 1912 as an option. A 1918 advert shows wood wheels, however back in the day it was not unknown to use older engravings rather than make an expensive new block for adverts.

[Scrunt & Farthing]

On 12/1/2021 at 7:03 PM, nz2 said:

Referring back to the Commer Car bus, does anyone have any notes as to when wooden spokes were replaced with metal spokes. We have recovered a back axle for a chain drive Commer Car that has bearing caps the same as shown in the bus photo. The wooden spokes are substantial as built for the heavier loading rate.  

Doug, I have a General Arrangement drawing for a Commer Cars C Type rear axle.  It appeared on ebay last year, I was unsuccessful in buying the original but the vendor kindly sent me a high-res'ish photo of the drawing.  That was for wooden wheels.  It is drg number 1748, if it helps I can email it over to you. 

Dave

[nz2]

Thanks Dave. Look forward to seeing it.