Imperial War museum donate 50 Military vehicles to American museum

[Nick Johns]

http://warbirdsnews.com/aviation-museum-news/pima-air-and-space-museum-expanding.html?fbclid=IwAR3mtqoCP3SHY7qXyHFqZzQ2MombehFYDDshj2oUIzzC4CUUahsqZAGsKEU

[REME 245]

Quote

 

Hopefully nothing rare on display in this country if they are giving them away.  

[ferretfixer]

Perhaps paving the way, to get some interesting vehicles gifted back here. From the Museum in the states in the future?.....

[Nick Johns]

8 hours ago, ferretfixer said:

Perhaps paving the way, to get some interesting vehicles gifted back here. From the Museum in the states in the future?.....

I doubt it, the vehicles are probably from the Land Warfare hall at Duxford which the IWM announced several years ago a plan to replace the hall with more aircraft display buildings and reduce the number of vehicles on show, concentrate Duxford as an air museum

Edited February 5, 2021 by Nick Johns

[ferretfixer]

That's a great Shame.  I have noticed that Major Museums are particularly good at Selling Off Donated Items also!.....I often wonder what would happen when the  family of a Donat, visited & enquired after the particular Donated item. given to the Museum? I wonder how they would feel about the Generous gift being sold off?.... 

If the Museum no longer wanted / had a requirement to keep the item. it SHOULD at least be offered back to the family I would think. From a Moral Point of view?..... (In the case of Small Arms, obviously it would be more complicated. Dues to Licencing Issues )

[T8Hants]

The point being that once you 'donate' you give up title the object, if it was 'on loan' that is different kettle.  Why have the IWM given up this potential income, have they had the good sense to loan the items albeit indefinitely, what caveats if any are in place should the American museum fold?

 

[ferretfixer]

Yes I understand. However, i feel when a family donate a particular item. I an certain they do so think that it will be on display in the Museum for everyone to view / enjoy. They certainly wouldnt expect it to be disposed of I would surmise?

I met a curator at Bovington a few years ago. Who had resigned from his job, due to the above statement. he was particularly angry over the medals that the Museum was getting rid of. In my opinion, if you have hundreds of the same type of medal. that would make sense. Museums are always fund raising to keep them going of course. But a Medal is a personal object, & I feel it only right. That the Donat's family should be contacted as to the disposal of such am item. & At least offered it's return. & if not required by the Family. THEN disposed of. Call it a Moral Obligation if you will?

[Mk3iain]

I may be completely wrong here but is the IWM not a national government sponsored asset.

If so are we not all "stakeholders" and should not major decisions like this be answerable to the public through parliament and our MP's.

If this is the case a valuable asset is being disposed of with the subsequent loss of jobs never mind the heritage without recourse.

Just because someone or a small group of trusted governors decide they want to focus on aviation a do away with a major feature does not make it right.

Perhaps someone from IWM would be able to answer these questions and perhaps allay our fears.

A question for my MP perhaps.

I may have got it completely wrong of course...

[robin craig]

Is there any list of what is going? I think these must be hard times for museums these days to stay relevant. Covid only complicates matters. I loved the Land warfare hall when I visited years ago. Even then there was a lot outside not on display. Will be interesting to watch this unfold.

 

[ruxy]

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/export-art-antiques-and-cultural-goods-special-rules

"Means of Transport"  -  definition,   this probably stinks but I can think of the instance(s)  where they just ride roughshod.

 

[Rootes75]

Reading through the article I did wonder what the 50 Rare vehicles are?

[ferretfixer]

6 minutes ago, Rootes75 said:

Reading through the article I did wonder what the 50 Rare vehicles are?

If they are RARE. Then WHY are they getting rid of THEM?..... Common one's yes, i can understand. But 'RARE'?......

[wally dugan]

As some one who gifted two vehicle that were left to me as the job   l held it was best not to own any military vehicle indeed it was two  years after l left the museum before l bought one. The vehicles that l gifted had a caveat that if they could not be displayed or stored they would be offered back to me a the current market value in place at the time of  disposal and was given a written assurance to that effect  . A few years later l found out that one had been given to a unregistered so called museum   who refused to answer any letters as to it were about's. The  museum  who held them in the first place said has they had transferred it the they had no further interest in the vehicle and as the person who agreed had left he should not have agreed to the gifting l took legal action which cost a large amount in fees during this process it can to light two large items lent to this museum had been cut up without contacting  the owner later these items appeared for sale

[ferretfixer]

That must have been stomach Churningly Sickening, Wally?  

[Minesweeper]

I think dealing with museums really does need extra care as although everything might be done and agreed by all the parties involved at the onset, museum personnel can so often change and after a passage of time those earlier agreements can be overlooked or forgotten. I do not think for one moment that there is any dishonesty involved, it is perhaps just that the agreement is not known about and in mind at a later date by different new folks involved since the agreement was made..

I know of one incident of an owner offering to give wheels to a museum - they were fitted with good tyres when the gift was made and the gift was made on condition that the tyres would be taken off by the museum and returned to the donor. After a period of time, an enquiry was made to the museum about progress in returning the tyres and the simple answer was that they had to be cut off the wheels to get them off and thus ruined. The earlier agreement had been forgotten, overlooked or simply not known about by the different folks later involved. Cutting the tyres off was the quick and easy way out to get them off when it was just the wheels that were wanted. All a little disappointing when one tries to be helpful.

[wally dugan]

in the above account what happened to the records all registered museum have or should have  any item held by them is recorded in the  accession ledger in my case they did not follow their published disposal policy which was the same as when the agreement was made. when in 1997 the museum of army transport had a administrator in that period l went through the ledger and returned as many vehicles and items lent or gifted to the owners before like what was to happen in 2003 when items were held up to one half years after it closed for good  you would be surprised by the grief some owners gave me when trying to return items all this was done with the agreement of administrators as it was felt to be the right thing to do

[Pzkpfw-e]

According to Craig Moore, it's not correct. He's talked to IWM contacts.

[ltwtbarmy]

9 hours ago, Pzkpfw-e said:

According to Craig Moore, it's not correct. He's talked to IWM contacts.

If by not correct you mean this reported donation to Pima Air museum, I hope so. Pima has had past dealings with Duxford - https://pimaair.org/museum-aircraft/mil-mi-24d/

I have always loved the land warfare hall, and will be personally devastated if he exhibits were to go.

[Nick Johns]

4 hours ago, ltwtbarmy said:

If by not correct you mean this reported donation to Pima Air museum, I hope so. Pima has had past dealings with Duxford - https://pimaair.org/museum-aircraft/mil-mi-24d/

I have always loved the land warfare hall, and will be personally devastated if he exhibits were to go.

A few years back IWM Duxford announced plans to Demolish the Land Warfare hall, which in recent years had been closed to visitors,  and replace it with more aircraft exhibit hangers and reduce the vehicle exhibits

IWM last year were granted planning permission to build a 160 room Hilton hotel on their site, beside the Airspace building                                                                                                                          

Edited February 6, 2021 by Nick Johns

[Baz48]

Duxford Airfield always has and always will be an ever-evolving assemblage of objects. The history of Duxford airfield/landing ground is well documented coming into the guise of a museum by a roundabout route in the early seventies.

Artifacts held by the museum on all sites are noted on a list along with the reason the museum holds them. How and when obtained I believe with a rating as to there desirability and relevance to the core collection. As mentioned, Duxford is ever evolving often driven by the key personnel within the museum at the time driven by strategies emanating in London.

What ever the trend set by London Duxford and other museum sites within the grouping follow. Items at the fore are removed, Duxford has a long list of gifted items that appear to have slipped into obscurity occasionally emerging in other collections/ownership.

When an artifact is gifted to the museum ownership is totally the museums to do with as they want, the only safeguard a politician who’s desk the piece of paper crosses for signature authorising disposal, a pure formality.

Yes, the demolition consent on the Land Warfare Hall is still active as are the plans for the building next to the road and I would suggest the American Air Museum might be a candidate in the effort to return Duxford to a 1940’s feel. It’s the museums site they can do as they wish with their toys.

[simon king]

AAM was awarded Grade II* Listed Status in Dec 2020. 

[david1212]

On 2/6/2021 at 5:59 AM, ltwtbarmy said:

I have always loved the land warfare hall, and will be personally devastated if he exhibits were to go.

Likewise. It is not a minor exhibit but could be a stand-alone full blown museum.

While of course down to the management ( using the term loosely ) to decide the focus of a museum IMO they also have to consider what brings visitors through the gate. Entry is not cheap ( from the website single adult £20, family £51 ). For those without a specialist interest diversity will influence deciding where to visit and in time re-visit. I wonder how many remember the Land Warfare Hall as much as the remainder of the site?

As to so many the major exhibits being moved to the USA rather than another UK site I strongly disagree with this.

[Baz48]

20 hours ago, david1212 said:

Likewise. It is not a minor exhibit but could be a stand-alone full blown museum.

While of course down to the management ( using the term loosely ) to decide the focus of a museum IMO they also have to consider what brings visitors through the gate. Entry is not cheap ( from the website single adult £20, family £51 ). For those without a specialist interest diversity will influence deciding where to visit and in time re-visit. I wonder how many remember the Land Warfare Hall as much as the remainder of the site?

As to so many the major exhibits being moved to the USA rather than another UK site I strongly disagree with this.

When free site transport was available on site the LWH often toped the customer satisfaction questionnaire on leaving site. That was before the LWH was closed for extended periods of the year due to a number of reasons one being staffing levels and cleaning of facilities. Also what was the thinking behind designing the AAM a structure to house aircraft requiring the whole glazed frontage to be removed to allow movement of exhibits that didn't pass through the double doors. yes it won awards became listed and is totally impractical and out of keeping with the site. 

[ajmac]

1 hour ago, Baz48 said:

yes it won awards became listed and is totally impractical and out of keeping with the site. 

It's a beautiful building.  My favourite on the site.

[david1212]

On 2/8/2021 at 3:32 PM, Baz48 said:

When free site transport was available on site the LWH often toped the on leaving site. That was before the LWH was closed for extended periods of the year due to a number of reasons one being staffing levels and cleaning of facilities. Also what was the thinking behind designing the AAM a structure to house aircraft requiring the whole glazed frontage to be removed to allow movement of exhibits that didn't pass through the double doors. yes it won awards became listed and is totally impractical and out of keeping with the site. 

I'm not at all surprised that the LWH was often at the top of the customer satisfaction questionnaire. I'm trying to recall the last time I was there but at the latest 2015. However if not then soon after rumours about closure were circulating.

I've pondered the AAM a few times. Displaying so many items in that amount of space is not easy. Presumably the idea was to have major items up in the air rather than on the ground too and once in place they were to be considered permanent. While certainly iconic it does not fit in with the surroundings of the era or the exhibits. For access to me while large cranes required removing sections of the roof would be more logical than the whole front.

Edited February 14, 2021 by david1212