Military Land Rover 109 fitted with 2.25 diesel

[67burwood]

Help and advice needed !!

I recently bought an ex military Land Rover 109 that’s had a Land Rover 2.25 diesel fitted, it’s been off the road for approximately 10 years, I’ve managed to get it running but it ran like a sack of 💩 and smokes like a chimney, I’ve drained the tank, added fresh fuel, replaced the lift pump and changed the fuel filter, it looks like someone has run it on used engine oil as the filter was blocked 

 

it now starts better and revs but still smokes grey with a hint of blue which I believe is fuel and oil, I read somewhere that blocked fuel return pipes on land rovers can cause a problem so I cleaned the pipes with an air line, while doing this I noticed the return pipe bango nut has a very small hole 

apologies for the out of focus picture but is this normal and if so why so small?

I know this is not a normal question about military vehicles but there is a wealth of knowledge on this forum and  any advice would be welcome. 

[Tony B]

Have you checked valve clearances and injector wear? Also are you burning oil. The engine may just be clapped out.

Edited November 29, 2020 by Tony B

[67burwood]

Valve clearances checked and all fine, injectors have been stripped and cleaned but I don’t have a pressure tester to bench test, there is virtually no crank case compression and the smoke is mainly grey, if you hold the revs continuously the smoke clears but returns at idle, I think I’ve narrowed it down to either pump timing or dripping injectors but my main question is the return pipe banjo supposed to have such a small pin hole or is it a duff and needs drilling out. 

[ruxy]

I don't think I have ever seen a banjo-bolt drilled through just one wall, the hole dia. looks about right.  I would say it is a manufacture fault - best option to confirm - buy a new bolt ,  drilling through both walls would hardly weaken ,  I doubt if one hole matches the cross-section area of the anulus  - that would cause some flow restriction BUT is it to create some back pressure requirement  ?     I doubt if any need on a spill-line return to tank  ?   One can only assume it was not a problem in the past ?

If you compare the compression ratio petrol/diesel , you would think hand barring would be more or less impossible , it does not work like that ,  2.5na  seem little more  cr that a 2.1/4 pet.

Stood a long time ,  what have you to loose adding some  Forte fuel additive (diesel treatment)  ,  don't  MOT stations do a force sale of the stuff with smokers & suggest go for a long motorway cruise and come back again , or come back with a mate & his non-smoker  LoL

 

[67burwood]

9 hours ago, ruxy said:

?   One can only assume it was not a problem in the past ?

Well I don’t know if it was a problem in the past , the previous owner said it was a smoker before I got laid up.

you mentioned it could be for back pressure, why would there be back pressure required on the return pipe ?  ( I am not overly familiar with diesels )

[Tony B]

That Forte is good, Halfords do a stuff in grey bottle , can't for the life of me remember the name. Ive used that on vehicles that laid a smokescreen and it worked. Just checked its called Cataclean.

[Richard Farrant]

19 hours ago, ruxy said:

I don't think I have ever seen a banjo-bolt drilled through just one wall, the hole dia. looks about right.  I would say it is a manufacture fault - best option to confirm - buy a new bolt ,  drilling through both walls would hardly weaken ,  I doubt if one hole matches the cross-section area of the anulus  - that would cause some flow restriction BUT is it to create some back pressure requirement  ?   

 

 

I would say that leak off pipe banjo bolt hole is correct as it is. Having been working on diesel engines for over 50 years, I see nothing unusual in this.

I noticed a comment on the compression on a 2.5na not feeling much different to a 2.25 petrol engine, that may be so but the 2.25 diesel from memory was indirect injection and they run at a higher compression than the 2.5 direct injection, so harder to turn over by hand.

[johann morris]

I bought a series 2a a few years ago, it was born as a petrol but someone had put a 2.5 diesel in it, I think it was from an LDV. Where I live it's all small roads with very steep hills, I hated it but thought that I would change it for a 2.25 Land rover diesel to keep it all land rover. It was a good engine, no smoke and on normal roads quite acceptable but around here, I don't think so. So I did what I should have done in the beginning and put a 2.25 petrol in pure silk. Noisy old diesels, you can keep them.

This is after rebuild.

Jon

 

 

[ruxy]

2 hours ago, Richard Farrant said:

I would say that leak off pipe banjo bolt hole is correct as it is. Having been working on diesel engines for over 50 years, I see nothing unusual in this.

I noticed a comment on the compression on a 2.5na not feeling much different to a 2.25 petrol engine, that may be so but the 2.25 diesel from memory was indirect injection and they run at a higher compression than the 2.5 direct injection, so harder to turn over by hand.

Looking at the Haynes  book of lies  -  DIESEL  S2A & 3  ,1958  to 1985  (up to C Reg.)    the  cr is  23:1     //   (Petrol  8:1  2.1/4 Pet. )

Looking at the   Haynes book of lies  -  Defender   1983 to 1995   (up to N Reg)

10J  =  23:1

12J and 19J  =  21:1

200 TDi  and  300 TDi   =   19.5:1  +/-  0.5:1

The point I am making , if you place a spanner on a 8:1 petrol and compare the required force to turn the engine over -  you can't expect that it needs as much extra force  as 2+  to  almost 3X  to turn a diesel (in good condition)  over.

 

 

[ruxy]

Stood diesel fuel abt. 10 years  , filter plugging - black gob , then I would suspect  -  microbial and / or  fungal contamination.    I only use proper cherry  + a bit of petrol in coldest winter, although I understand a blend with virgin Mazola is OK ,  it is the dodgy bio it may have been run on.

Grey smoke , exhausting into near freezing damp atmosphere.  In summer good warm through and then take it to red line for a while & you can clear it.  Seen that so would anticipate - that is with vehicles not road taxed ,  waste of time until you can get it on the road for a good blast.

[ruxy]

Go to a LR franchise dealership parts counter and ask  :-

https://www.lrseries.com/index.php?route=product/search&search=273521

[67burwood]

Thank you for all the good advice.

So the plan is buy a new banjo bolt just to check if there’s any difference 

put some diesel fuel cleaner in

then thrash the nuts out of it and see what happens!! 

[67burwood]

 

Nice looking Landy Jon 👍

Edited November 30, 2020 by 67burwood

[johann morris]

Thanks, any pictures of yours?

[67burwood]

3 hours ago, Richard Farrant said:

I would say that leak off pipe banjo bolt hole is correct as it is. Having been working on diesel engines for over 50 years, I see nothing unusual in this.

Could you please expand on your answer Richard?  Just out of interest why would the hole in the banjo be so small, it literally is like a pin hole and considering the return pipe is the same size as the feed pipe, there’s obviously a reason and would it cause a problem if the hole was drilled bigger?

[67burwood]

6 minutes ago, johann morris said:

Thanks, any pictures of yours?

Sorry haven’t taken any pictures, it’s your standard military series 3 with 20 layers of flaking paint,  a dash that looks like a dogs chewed it and a motley collection of seat cushions!! 

not nicely painted and sign written like yours.

[Richard Farrant]

53 minutes ago, 67burwood said:

Could you please expand on your answer Richard?  Just out of interest why would the hole in the banjo be so small, it literally is like a pin hole and considering the return pipe is the same size as the feed pipe, there’s obviously a reason and would it cause a problem if the hole was drilled bigger?

To keep fuel in the pipe and not drain away when the engine stops, a restricter.

[67burwood]

So...new banjo nut arrived today 

and it’s the same, it has a tiny pin hole to restrict the fuel return, next step loosed all the injector pipes and advanced the pump timing by 2mm , tightened everything and started it up , usual puff of smoke , put a dead Leg on the throttle set at about 1500rpm and watched the smoke disappear 🎉

ran it at 1500rpm for about 30 minutes straight and didn’t miss a beat, virtually no smoke , I haven’t added the fuel treatment yet, I will wait until I get it on the road.

 

Edited December 5, 2020 by 67burwood

[ruxy]

The hole is tiny ,  considering the time-line  -  complex drilling.   First time I was inside Cummins engine factory at Darlington was 1971 .   I was sort of amazed , clean room  ?   -  there were probably six men nearing retirement age  using magnification glass approx.  12" dia.  (standard thing - seen them in other factories).  They were actually hand aiming & drilling the holes in the end of the injectors  !  

The CAV inject pump  (actually a badge-engineered  Roosa Master , possibly the injectors are also  ?   )   of course is lubricated with diesel ,  so are the injectors  - from the spill-line.

[ruxy]

btw      'Spill-line'   , I believe is the proper term ,  however - they do get called a  "Dribble-pipe"   -   now we know why.

[Richard Farrant]

1 hour ago, ruxy said:

btw      'Spill-line'   , I believe is the proper term ,  however - they do get called a  "Dribble-pipe"   -   now we know why.

CAV refer to it as "leak back", I have always known it as "leak off", much the same meaning. The reference to "spill" often means when timing an inline pump, you used a swan neck pipe on the pump in place of an injector pipe, that is known as "spill timing".

The hole in the banjo is 0.5mm

[67burwood]

It’s definitely a leak back pipe, literally!! It’s started to dribble and leak 🙄