Willys MB/GPW wanted

[JPMulders]

Hi guys, just found your forum and enjoyed all the great historical stuff brought to life again. After some post war restoration projects, Unimog 404s mainly, I want to realize my dream of restoring a WW2 vehicle. I got a workshop and I am an engineer so I am able to handle a nice challenge but what I really need is people who know people and they know people etc... I am new to the WW2 community but have spent many hours on browsing and watching YouTube, calling and e-mailing around, visiting other hobbyists, etc just to get myself know and come across a nice opportunity. I do not want to start with a huge or expensive exclusive project but ready to invest and get started well. So currently my goal is to find a honest original complete Willys/GPW 42-45. bodywork, mechanicals, etc I can manage but it should not be a heap of scrap. (Hard time to explain the wife that I burned 10k on a rusty bunch of parts). It should also be a complete jeep in order to prevent a cash drain on sourcing parts to complete it.

Plan is to rebuild the car from scratch and as original as possible. (I know this costs). Matching numbers would be a great deal of course but I am aware of motorpool swaps that might be more realistic. 

So a long story short, If you know somebody selling a project, let me know. Transport can be arranged so I look in the US and all over Europe. I found a good list of middle men and importers that I contacted but so far nothing much. I appreciate all the help, tips and tricks.

Thanks and greetings from The Netherlands!

JP

 

 

Greetings from The Netherlands

[Jessie The Jeep]

Welcome to the forum and good luck with your search for a vehicle. From watching adverts over the last few years, Jeeps now seem to fall into two categories - those up and running demanding high prices and complete wrecks needing a lot of time and money spent on them. All the "running restorations" seem to have long gone.

I bought a Ford in 2012 and after a complete strip and rebuild, got it on the road again in 2014. I got the wreck for around £4,700 and including the purchase price, it ended up costing around £13~14,000. People selling wrecks for rebuild these days seem to be asking a lot more for the basic restoration project. 

Of course you may find a project at a sensible price, but you could be looking for quite a while, especially if you start narrowing down options with "matching numbers" or "complete Jeep". These days, I'd expect to be spending £10~15,000+ on top of your purchase price to end up with a good running restoration. Adds for restored Jeeps seem to start at around £27,000.

[JPMulders]

2 hours ago, Jessie The Jeep said:

Welcome to the forum and good luck with your search for a vehicle. From watching adverts over the last few years, Jeeps now seem to fall into two categories - those up and running demanding high prices and complete wrecks needing a lot of time and money spent on them. All the "running restorations" seem to have long gone.

I bought a Ford in 2012 and after a complete strip and rebuild, got it on the road again in 2014. I got the wreck for around £4,700 and including the purchase price, it ended up costing around £13~14,000. People selling wrecks for rebuild these days seem to be asking a lot more for the basic restoration project. 

Of course you may find a project at a sensible price, but you could be looking for quite a while, especially if you start narrowing down options with "matching numbers" or "complete Jeep". These days, I'd expect to be spending £10~15,000+ on top of your purchase price to end up with a good running restoration. Adds for restored Jeeps seem to start at around £27,000.

Hi Jessie, thanks for the nice words. Indeed it seems so because many people claim that good projects can be 'scored' for sub 10k prices which does not seem the reality today anymore. Or I am not patient enough. (true)

I am convinced that a most complete Jeep will at least save me on sourcing all the bits and pieces. For the matching numbers, I will see if that will hold when time elapses.. It would be a 'nice to have' though. 

I am not after a business case, just a challenge and something I will get emotionally attached to. Hobby cost money they say and that is what I keep in mind. I have no problem with paying for good parts and make it a fine jeep but the money needs to be spent right and not on useless stuff to save a bit. Left and right some options start popping up but all in the 15k range for a complete one in reasonable state. Will start checking these options and check if they are worth the price vs the current market conditions.

gr

JP

[steviem]

Welcome, i have not long started mine, it is a long long road to go down, 

I got mine as a running project compete but needs almost a full restoration from these guys

https://www.amdfourwheeldrive.co.uk/vehicles/

[Jessie The Jeep]

You may find that buying a second project for parts is worth while. I got a wartime chassis, tub, fenders, hood and grill in addition to my project. I wanted the tub as mine was too far gone, but sold the rest for profit. In the end, it worked out that I got the tub for nothing and made £300 on top. Lots of salvaged parts from the old tub were also sold on. You'd be surprised what parts people will buy on Ebay and from all over the world.

[JPMulders]

2 hours ago, steviem said:

Welcome, i have not long started mine, it is a long long road to go down, 

I got mine as a running project compete but needs almost a full restoration from these guys

https://www.amdfourwheeldrive.co.uk/vehicles/

Are these the same guys as jeep finder? I see similar pictures but different price tags. I am looking at this one: https://www.amdfourwheeldrive.co.uk/1945-willys-mb-jeep/ but it is really far gone. I have asked for more detailed pics and some information. The 42 scripted one is tempting as well but the picture of that backpanel hurts the eye as they patched over the logo. What do you think?

[sirhc]

You may think that buying a complete Jeep will save you a lot of money, but bear in mind nearly everything will be worn out or need work in some way. Engine, gearbox, axles, steering box etc parts are not cheap, NOS may not be available and reproduction parts vary a lot in quality. Whatever you think it may cost to do a restoration... it will cost more!
 

Chris 

[steviem]

Yeah that's the guys Mike and his brother they normally have a lot more available i went to their barns there were loads there tell them exactly what you are looking for.

[JPMulders]

1 hour ago, sirhc said:

You may think that buying a complete Jeep will save you a lot of money, but bear in mind nearly everything will be worn out or need work in some way. Engine, gearbox, axles, steering box etc parts are not cheap, NOS may not be available and reproduction parts vary a lot in quality. Whatever you think it may cost to do a restoration... it will cost more!
 

Chris 

Hi Chris, Did some homework indeed, never thought it would be cheap but indeed some pricy stuff around there. I expect it will be a serious cash burning project but do not tell my wife pls. 🤫

41 minutes ago, steviem said:

Yeah that's the guys Mike and his brother they normally have a lot more available i went to their barns there were loads there tell them exactly what you are looking for.

 

I am in touch with Hugh, so let us see where he comes up with. Wildenberg in The Netherlands is expecting a shipment of 5 restoration projects but they have a waiting list of 8 people. 🤪

 

 

[matchlesswdg3]

I have quoted this one before, but its apt!  "Jeep that is a good price; Jeep that is a Good vehicle/project; Jeep that is available now.........you can only ever get two out of those three!"  But my (note - MY) sense of the market in UK is that prices for Jeeps have peaked and with the way the economy is - and likely to be in the next three years - price falls will be evident, if not actually happening already.  As always, the really good (original and genuine) stuff will tend to retain value but everything else won't (IMHO).  The slide will likely start (started?) with the WW2 wannabes......the Hotchkiss, etc..  On the other hand, it is highly unlikely that the cost of new parts and restoration services will do anything but rise - somewhat, at least.  What that tells you, if I am right, is that financially it makes sense to hang on and buy a sensibly priced good running Jeep that can be gently upgraded.  Of course, head and heart are two different things!  Good Luck!

[JPMulders]

7 minutes ago, matchlesswdg3 said:

I have quoted this one before, but its apt!  "Jeep that is a good price; Jeep that is a Good vehicle/project; Jeep that is available now.........you can only ever get two out of those three!"  But my (note - MY) sense of the market in UK is that prices for Jeeps have peaked and with the way the economy is - and likely to be in the next three years - price falls will be evident, if not actually happening already.  As always, the really good (original and genuine) stuff will tend to retain value but everything else won't (IMHO).  The slide will likely start (started?) with the WW2 wannabes......the Hotchkiss, etc..  On the other hand, it is highly unlikely that the cost of new parts and restoration services will do anything but rise - somewhat, at least.  What that tells you, if I am right, is that financially it makes sense to hang on and buy a sensibly priced good running Jeep that can be gently upgraded.  Of course, head and heart are two different things!  Good Luck!

Hi Ferg, very wise words and I agree to that. Most flexible out of your three is time. I will not act before I am convinced I found what I am looking for. The post on this forum and on G503 can be seen as a fishing hook for that one PM or mail that will drop one day in my mailbox with the right deal. Speculating on price dropping I find a bit of a gamble as I am not sure it will make a difference. Looking at the known players in the Benelux, all they can find in the US is shipped in 40' containers to Rotterdam and sold before arrival at 15k euro price levels for a rolling jeep in poor state. Then it is not even matching etc. It is like the housing market in crowded areas like West Holland and London.. no effect from a crisis and prices higher than ever. 

Actually one factor comes in play though.. I have euro's to spend and the Pound sterling is expected to drop with Brexit and covid doubling up the troubles on the island. This might favor my perspective. Having that said... it is a terrible situation we are all going through and I really regret Brexit as I have worked 15 years for a company based out of Chester.

JP

[Jessie The Jeep]

So many times at events I hear..."I'm waiting until I find the perfect Jeep for me", so another little piece of wisdom I share at events is this - There's no such thing as the perfect Jeep for you. You have to just buy a Jeep that fits your budget at the time and make it the perfect Jeep yourself.

Depending on your budget, it may be a runner that you tinker with, or it could be a wreck that you spend years sourcing parts for and rebuilding. Either way, you'll spend a good chunk of cash, but one way is expensive initially and gets you a vehicle you can drive, the other spreads the cost and is a long term project.

[JPMulders]

15 minutes ago, Jessie The Jeep said:

So many times at events I hear..."I'm waiting until I find the perfect Jeep for me", so another little piece of wisdom I share at events is this - There's no such thing as the perfect Jeep for you. You have to just buy a Jeep that fits your budget at the time and make it the perfect Jeep yourself.

Depending on your budget, it may be a runner that you tinker with, or it could be a wreck that you spend years sourcing parts for and rebuilding. Either way, you'll spend a good chunk of cash, but one way is expensive initially and gets you a vehicle you can drive, the other spreads the cost and is a long term project.

Guess you are right there, in that sense it is a sort of cashflow management decision. Nevertheless I remain picky in order to get the jeep as complete as possible for a bit more money so I can really start. I did that with my Unimogs as well, somehow I like that approach. we will see. 

Got something upcoming.. no starting project but something I couldn't resist! More news later.

 

[steviem]

Some wise words said, as a newbie myself i have taken a lot of good advice onboard,  read books lots of them study pictures and restoration blogs decide what you want, what are your skill sets, space, budget and what do you want, a showpiece or something that runs and is safe, i personally do not want a concourse piece but something that runs well is safe and still a WW2 Jeep with few dings and dents ( lets call it patina) it has not taken me long to realise space is a massive factor and one which i am short of, so i have made the choice to do all body,  panel work etc myself and send the drive train out, hopefully to a fellow member of the board.

Edited August 14, 2020 by steviem

[67burwood]

23 hours ago, JPMulders said:

Are these the same guys as jeep finder? I see similar pictures but different price tags. I am looking at this one: https://www.amdfourwheeldrive.co.uk/1945-willys-mb-jeep/ but it is really far gone. I have asked for more detailed pics and some information. The 42 scripted one is tempting as well but the picture of that backpanel hurts the eye as they patched over the logo. What do you think?

I believe Jeep finder buy there stock from AMD, hence the similar pictures but higher price, I can definitely recommend dealing with Mike and Anthony at AMD.

[JPMulders]

4 hours ago, 67burwood said:

I believe Jeep finder buy there stock from AMD, hence the similar pictures but higher price, I can definitely recommend dealing with Mike and Anthony at AMD.

Thanks! I will check it out. Indeed a 1200 GBP premium for the same jeep/same pictures. Not sure what the added value is. I will mail AMD for more info. cheers!

[steviem]

Ask for Mike 

[Pete Ashby]

On 8/14/2020 at 12:00 PM, Jessie The Jeep said:

So many times at events I hear..."I'm waiting until I find the perfect Jeep for me", so another little piece of wisdom I share at events is this - There's no such thing as the perfect Jeep for you. You have to just buy a Jeep that fits your budget at the time and make it the perfect Jeep yourself.

Depending on your budget, it may be a runner that you tinker with, or it could be a wreck that you spend years sourcing parts for and rebuilding. Either way, you'll spend a good chunk of cash, but one way is expensive initially and gets you a vehicle you can drive, the other spreads the cost and is a long term project.

I think Steve has summed the whole expenditure versus value for money issue pretty succinctly.

Your purchase has to be driven by your budget, your ability, tooling /equipment and as steviem above has found out available  working space. 

Pete

[JPMulders]

7 hours ago, Pete Ashby said:

I think Steve has summed the whole expenditure versus value for money issue pretty succinctly.

Your purchase has to be driven by your budget, your ability, tooling /equipment and as steviem above has found out available  working space. 

Pete

Indeed, the relation to your budget is most important rather than the 'business case'. At least for me it is, since I have no intention to resell it whatsoever. But first things first, getting started. Cashflow wise it's a choice wether to go with a basic project and source the rest over a period of time or a rather complete project. 

How do you guys look at the availability of original/NOS the coming years? If I start digging into the jeep world, it feels like thousands of people are looking for the same parts. I want to rebuild a jeep historically accurate and plan to work mostly with original parts for as far they can be found. Might take years so here and there a temporary repro part might be the only option to get the project going. 

Working space and equipment I am sorted with a large workshop including overhead manual crane and pit. As an engineer most stuff I should be able to perform myself as that is part of the fun.

Meanwhile things moved on and came across a nice project. A 1945 completely hard GPW, fully matching incl engine with Title. Never taken apart and original hood number still visible. Even the original toolkit and jack. 15k euro is a lot of money so I take a very experienced Jeep restorer with me. All I came across started with a very incomplete jeep with rusty holes for around 8k, reasonable around 10-12k. Had a barn find in The Netherlands for 12k that was a salad mix but in a barn for 40 years without moving. So looking at these as a reference the 15k euro is not too overly expensive although being on the high side of the range. It fits budget as it is rather complete and would be a great start. Just have to accept that prices have been rising. Have to notice that UK prices seem to be the highest somehow. No facts here, just my 2 cent.

Had found a 1000USD Willys MB 45 (bad condition but rolling) with 3 spare engines and lots of loose parts from a farmers fair in Michigan. Closed the deal with the guy to get it picked up but due to Corona he cannot get a scrap Title and the expeditor claims it is a former US DoD vehicle and therefor needs a specific export License which is 750 USD as well. So not sure if I will pull this one off without buying 1000's of euros on shipping. (All these port/handling fees add up quickly). It would be a project to use parts from and somehow finance part of the cost of the GPW. At least that is the theory.. 

Keep you posted on the progress but very excited on the GPW! will visit it Thursday and he is keeping it for me. 

Edited August 18, 2020 by JPMulders
errors

[matchlesswdg3]

Bear in mind that if you miss this one or it turns out a bust then the market can only be working in your favour.   I see a lot of highly priced hardware not shifting from week to week and eventually the message will get through to sellers that prices peaked probably six months ago and economic conditions are hardly likely to create demand - quite the reverse, I suspect.  Jeeps are hardly rare - even good or potentially good ones!

[JPMulders]

10 minutes ago, matchlesswdg3 said:

Bear in mind that if you miss this one or it turns out a bust then the market can only be working in your favour.   I see a lot of highly priced hardware not shifting from week to week and eventually the message will get through to sellers that prices peaked probably six months ago and economic conditions are hardly likely to create demand - quite the reverse, I suspect.  Jeeps are hardly rare - even good or potentially good ones!

Interesting perspective, I would think that with economic downturn lots of capital is stored in save investments like Art, Gold and Classic cars. Not sure if this counts as well for restoration projects to be honest. Talked to Wildenberg, they have an incoming shipment of 5 restoration projects from Midwest in the US. They sold 2 in advance and have 7 on the waiting list for the remaining 3. bizar but through. All what comes online in the UK is sold as soon as they get online. 

The one I am after is not officially for sale. It was imported earlier this year and the guy was just waiting if anybody in his network would be interested. He will not sell it for a euro less than 15.000 which I think is a serious price, even for a matching one in original state. When I told somebody about what I found he said that he would buy it if I will not.

Am I too eager and should I wait for a cheaper option or is this something I will regret for ever? (question to myself). Seeing is buying probably. 😊

[matchlesswdg3]

Well I would always say that if you like it and an afford it - buy it!  Forget any consideration of it being an investment.  I was just saying that if you miss out on this one, there are plenty more and lets face it, you are not going to get a bargain out of a place like Wildenbergs.  After all, they have to make a profit and they are selling to a client base they built up over years.  Yes, projects are in demand because they are much cheaper as an initial outlay than buying a restored Jeep.  They will usually end up being more expensive in the long run, but its affordable that way, I guess.  There used to be cheap alternatives to a Jeep - proper vehicles like the Dodge WC Series, but these are getting pretty expensive too!

[Rootes75]

I always used to be very cautious when it came to buying vehicles. Now being somewhat older (not much!) and wiser I take a different attitude. You know straight away when you see a project or vehicle whether its right for you, sometime the price may be a little higher than expected but you fall for something and go for it.

Vehicles, no matter which or condition are expensive in the long run, that's simply one aspect of our hobby that must go part and parcel with it.

I have missed some lovely vehicles in the past but now I suppose I understand their historical importance better and our 'role' as custodians for future generations. I say if you like it and it presses the right buttons for you go for it, its only yourself who would regret not snapping up that 'right' vehicle when its available.

[matchlesswdg3]

Yes, I kick myself at the vehicles I rejected at the time, mainly because they were the first ones I saw and wouldn't I be foolish buying the first one I saw......actually I was foolish in not going with gut instinct, so lost out on a lovely Austin military tourer and a British jeep in very original nick and both at prices that now seem pennies!  But the other thing that often guides you towards a good buy is finding a vendor who genuinely likes and knows about what he is selling.  Thats where finding something through clubs pays dividends.

[Rootes75]

Agreed, building up a rapport with a seller or should I say 'like' minded seller is a huge step in buying vehicle. Talking face to face with someone who knows and cares about what they have is important.

Not the faceless purchase off ebay and the like where there is no communication and just bidding wars!