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New member; Royal Artillery Kegresse


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Morning all,

What should I do? I joined up last night after getting excited about a post by Wally Dugan regarding a manual for the Kegresse attachment, then when I signed in today I find there is another member using the name `TonyB`. Since he outranks me both in time served and experience should I (can I) change my user name?

I have been putting back together a Citroen B2 (P7T) Kegresse for ahem…some time. I have seen photos of it being recovered from ruin near Aldershot in the early 1970s when it had the same line laying body as those in 1920s photos. It has a military Kegresse chassis rather than an adapted car frame with the original engine number stamped on it. The engine has cast iron pistons and an early B2 crankshaft, so the basic vehicle is perhaps older than the 1925 track system. I have built the twin speed rear axle with its spur geared dif and dif lock but several parts in the track mechanism are missing. Thus the need to look at the relevant manual.

I've driven RLs (winch trucks mainly) across the Sahara several times, and several types of LandRover, and early Unimogs (4x4 0911 Mercs).

Cheers, Tony.

(Before and now )

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Hi Runflat, thanks.

Yes, that’s good research. The other vehicle is not as listed there, it is a 1929 P10 (Citroen C4 based). I didn’t want to detract from my search for the Crossley Kegresse manual posted by Wally Dugan (April 24, General Interest and War Surplus thread). What did he mean when he said he had `put it in the box`? Can I read it? I posted there but got lost.

The P10 Kegresse has had a sad history. I’m told it came out of Bapty and I remember seeing it almost complete at RR Services in Battersea (Champs and Landies then). Years later it turned up with the roof sawn off and other bits robbed. A good friend (I used work on his DUKW) shoved it my way and it is coming together too. It never was military but I found a badge on it indicating that it originally came from a garage in Gloucester which is near to me, so full circle in 90 years.

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Posted (edited)

Thanks Tony. It’s good to meet people who care about machinery and support everyone’s work. I did want to check out that you  aren’t offended because I’ve come in with the same name that you use. Obviously I didn’t know at first.

Here is the radiator before I started, the corrugated top was to condense water vapour in the header tank for efficiency in the desert, and the nine small finned units can be individually removed and blanked off if one bursts. The engine doesn’t have a water pump or pressurised system. I thought about plumbing it into our central heating but the Missus wasn’t keen.

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Edited by TonyB
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The manual  was sent into a storage depositary  which deals with the storage of paper documents along with most of the things l have collected as to when or if they come back l have not made any plans as things still arrive even in the last week There may be a  photocopy of the manual in the workshop as it is my practise  to make copies as not to spoil the originals. l normally get a post when someone  post on a thread that l have commented on but for some reason this has not happened this time that and the fact that we are busy trying to play catchup and the on going work at home it is only now that l have had time to read the post's from   past days  

REGARDS  WALLY

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The Kegresses are interesting machines. Do have a look at the camions citroen site too.

http://les-camions-citroen.easyforumpro.com/forum

Minerva had this kind of radiator too. It was also used by the military. If it got pierced in battle you could plug a part of.

 

p.s.

As your car is a B2 so why not change the name in TonyB2  😉

Regards Fer

 

 

Edited by Citroman
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Hi Wally,

Everyone said you are busy so I didn’t want to bother you unduly. I’ve worked on White M3s (ex REME) and as you can see I am rebuilding an early Citroen Kegresse which I believe came out of the Royal Artillery at Aldershot. The same early P4 track system was fitted to the Crossley 15/20cwt lorry and I have a page from a manual which lists diagrams and parts for that vehicle. I’ve contacted the usual museums but they are closed, and the Royal Logistic Corp who built one, but now are closed, moving and have disposed of it anyway. Imagine my surprise when I saw the picture you posted of the Crossley Kegresse manual. Below is the page I found in my friend’s folder, if it looks familiar you might have that manual. I would be very grateful to see it either as a copy or to buy one if you know of one anywhere. If a copy is possible I would obviously want to cover all the costs.

Thanks for replying and good luck with house. We have just had a vintage crane in to lift some new roof parts into place. Exciting but disruptive.

Cheers, Tony

 

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Hey, that’s brilliant Citroman .B2 or not 2B. But would I have to close this account and start another? I’m going to have a proper look through the camion site tomorrow, it looks fascinating, thanks.

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TONY that page is in the manual l have and there is a  photocopied one in the workshop the original came with another manual for the BURFORD-KEGRESSE  which has the same track system from a sale in Nottinghamshire and was bought by a friend who sold it to me along with several period photos taken in  the parade ground at CARMARTHEN  of BURFORDs . l have not seen any mention of the CROSSLEY- KEGRESSE at the RLC been disposed of in the corp magazine WAGGONER  do you know were it has gone because  MR SIMPSON jr gave it to  THE NATIONAL ARMY MUSEUM  I collected it from BOVINGTON and started work on it as while it was at BOVEY they did not touch it l still have photos of the work and the engineers report next I heard it was sat outside with weeds growing round it by one the NAMs staff then it went to the RLC it is Shame as l found a section of original track and a  sponsor  who had already made a set of five trak- grip  pattern tyres which we could not get new in the UK but he had them made in the far east by their company who had the moulds

REGARDS WALLY

Edited by wally dugan
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Hi Wally,

I didn’t mean to alarm you, the wording of the recent email I had from RLC is that they are disposing of the vehicle to another museum because it doesn’t fit into their new premises. They say there are several museums interested and they haven’t decided which one will be best. I’m pleased to hear you worked on it, a great experience. I don’t know what date that one is, the one in Olyslager is 1924 showing a track system with front idler pulley.

I’m staggered by the stroke of luck at seeing your post of the manual and that it seems to be the same one that my deceased mate had a page from. He must be looking down and smiling. The track system changes 1924/25 from friction drive to toothed track, rear motorised pulley to front. There is an intermediate kit where the idler pulley has the older fitting of two cones tightened into the halves of the pulley which is a hangover from the friction drive.

On the page I posted above it lists diagrams figures 5, 6, 7 (pages 38-42) with maintenance operations which are cross over workings. My vehicle had been completely disassembled and I am unsure how the two cones join together on the axle between the idler bearings. I could throw the thing together and see what happens but it is satisfying to get it right first time.

Let me know if you want to sell your copy or photocopy it for me. I am interested in the Crossley Kegresse (and the Burford) because they are part of the British Army history. And link to Sir Ernest Swinton, the Father of the British Tank, which is appropriate since today is Fathers’ Day.

Respects, Tony

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21 hours ago, TonyB said:


Hey, that’s brilliant Citroman .B2 or not 2B. But would I have to close this account and start another? I’m going to have a proper look through the camion site tomorrow, it looks fascinating, thanks.

Hi Tony,

Have you seen a thread on this forum from about 7 years ago regarding a civilian Citroen Kegresse? I could not believe my eyes when it came up as it is my grandfather was driving it, back in the 1920's. He was a chauffeur and drove it from new.

regards, Richard

 

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Hi Richard,

Thanks for the fascinating link, I’m finding this site is enormous and I could spend ages looking at topics which draw you in. Plus I get lost. I had a read of the section in John Reynolds Citroen book covering William Robinson’s vehicle which you say your grandfather drove. Your post has added another dimension to historic vehicles because before I looked at the machine rather than the men in it. The same goes for military vehicles. The old photos often include a few soldiers and you wonder who stubbed out a roll-up before going into battle and left a mark on the wing which now means nothing.

Coincidence is boggling. A few years ago I was doing some work with an old neighbour who is known for his acumen with old vehicles. He had used a bren gun carrier for ploughing post war so I showed him my Kegresse. He went quiet so I thought he wasn’t interested. A couple of days later he turned up with a typed manuscript in a box. As a young man he went to Canada (1950s?) farming and adventuring. He met Jack Bocock who had been one of the White Crossing leaders and these pages were his version of the story, an hilarious countryman’s view of the antics of wealthy city slickers.

Cheers, Tony

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Hi Tony,

On the thread I linked, the first two photos, my grandfather driving in the top photo, with William Robinson in the back. I have a couple more photos probably taken at the same time, but the photo below is the same registration number, but different track layout and the bonnet is different. I did hear once that Citroen may have used this one advertise the vehicle and maybe they upgraded it for Mr Robinson. Sadly my father is no long alive because he remembered the car. I often wonder if it still exists.

regards, Richard

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19 hours ago, Richard Farrant said:

Hi Tony,

On the thread I linked, the first two photos, my grandfather driving in the top photo, with William Robinson in the back. I have a couple more photos probably taken at the same time, but the photo below is the same registration number, but different track layout and the bonnet is different.

Hi Richard,

It must be good to have pictures of your granddad at work in such celebrated grounds. Having coach-built such a sumptuous body I guess it made sense to up-date the mechanism. I would say the early pics are B2 based but probably on a car chassis because of the height of the body over the tracks. The car has a kick-up for the suspension movement on 4 quarter elliptic springs, the military Kegresse chassis is flat.

The other track system looks like the 1930s P17 with a C4 bonnet (and engine?). the arms for the idler pulley look quite long so it might be an adapted snow (neige) version with longer tracks giving less weight on the footprint and marking lawns/paths less. Perhaps it went into the estate of Mr Robinson if there is no record of it at Gravetye after his death, and their family archives might record where it went. I haven’t come across anything about it apart from J Reynold’s book.

Keep safe, Tony

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On 6/20/2020 at 9:50 PM, Citroman said:

The Kegresses are interesting machines. Do have a look at the camions citroen site too.

http://les-camions-citroen.easyforumpro.com/forum

Minerva had this kind of radiator too. It was also used by the military. If it got pierced in battle you could plug a part of

 

Thank you for the link to camions Citroen, it’s another vast collection of information by enthusiasts and I’ve spent too long already ogling the pics.

I looked at the WW 1 Minervas too. Amazing hit and run tactics from those brave men. Chausson radiators in Paris seem to have got it right.

All the best, Tony

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