E10 Petrol on its way?

[SirLanceUK]

E10 fuel: is the switch going to affect you?

With E10 unleaded petrol replacing E5 as the standard petrol grade from 1 September 2021, find out if your car’s compatible with E10 and how does this fuel could affect your car.

I have seen the post up to now, has anyone actually got any advice? or come the second are we all going to go bang?

I did notice Jag Engines after 1992 are meant to be ok, Shame that is well later then our design.

 

[simon king]

Don’t be fooled by the label on the pump at the moment.

Pays to check.

The local Sainsbury’s now shows the 95 octane unleaded as E10 on the label on the pump but won’t actually change over to E10 until 1st September...

Had to ask to find out that nugget of information

[LarryH57]

So I'm told E5 will still be available after switch over day and even now I use the highest grade of 97 octane at my local BP garage in my Landrover Lwt.

What would be interesting is any preventive measures we should take etc. At the moment with covid etc my Lwt is not used enough, so the petrol in the carb evaporates between drives. Does that help reduce the problem if I was to use E10.

Also are there any vehicles that will suffer a significant loss of power? Fingers crossed my Lwt seems to be ok with old petrol older than 6 months so is that an indication of how it would be with E10?

[ruxy]

https://www.esso.co.uk/en-gb/fuels/petrol

What Esso says about their 'super'  - it seems E10 with most brands of super unleaded will be a max. of 5% ethanol from September.   When tankers are leading from only about 6 terminals, the name on the pump does not mean a great difference.  BP,Shell,Esso.    The NE is supplied from what was Shell Jarrow Dry Terminal (now it's Prax , the other of the BIG two  ISTR is Greenergy.  Scotland is supplied from Grangemouth.

It seems super unleaded supply is different for North East England, South West England and Scotland- where it seems from Sept. you will not be able to avoid 10% ethanol.   The choice will be a 'super' or E10 with regional variation.

[LarryH57]

Yes I heard that too, that brand loyalty has no purpose at the petrol station, if all petrol is from the same place. But for me I'd like to know what bits of the carb or elsewhere will be attacked by E10 and what I can do about it? Are there any after market parts that can help the situation? 

[ruxy]

https://fbhvc.co.uk/fuels

also I purchased this book

https://classicenginesmodernfuel.org.uk/

On a Land Rover = not so many parts that have a possibility of rubber degradation.   The main risk seems to be acidic water settling in base of tanks & carburettor.  The book above - the researcher found erosion in his own car's carb. float-chamber.

As always with the internet there are those who spread fear, I don't think it beyond the intelligence of the oil major/suppliers chemists to sort out without buying extra bottles of additive.

You can always lay your Rover up for 6 months and sit it out . By April 1st  2022  -  we should know the real truth from the myths.

[terryb]

Am I correct in hearing there will be no more red diesel, or should I say diesel with a lower rate tax available?

[radiomike7]

12 hours ago, terryb said:

Am I correct in hearing there will be no more red diesel, or should I say diesel with a lower rate tax available?

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/reform-of-red-diesel-entitlements/reform-of-red-diesel-and-other-rebated-fuels-entitlement

[Scammell4199]

Just wanted to bring this one back to the fore as i heard something on the radio about it a few days ago.

I seem remember reading somewhere, and someone mentioned it here, about using some sort of aviation fuel. Can anyone elaborate? Presumably thats not jet fuel, but rather what modern piston aircraft use?

My concern about oil companies having "Super" versions which aren't E10 is that they will eventually be phased out just like four star was. So we need a long term solution.

Thanks. Richard

[radiomike7]

16 minutes ago, Scammell4199 said:

I seem remember reading somewhere, and someone mentioned it here, about using some sort of aviation fuel. Can anyone elaborate? Presumably thats not jet fuel, but rather what modern piston aircraft use?

Thanks. Richard

If you mean Avgas it is 100 octane and low lead so unsuitable for any vehicle with a cat. It would be subject to duty if used as a road fuel.

[LarryH57]

I guess the vehicles we care about dont have a catalytic converter?

And out of interest how many voters own Historic or Classic Vehicles, say compared to those who 'know' that Carbon in the atmosphere has gone up thousands of percentage points since 1st Jan 2020.

If you were a politician who would you pander to????

Edited July 26, 2021 by LarryH57

[Scammell4199]

Fine for wartime vehicles then.

On the subject of duty, whose going to know? I'm guessing that it couldn't be tested for being avgas at the road side?

I'd be interested in knowing results people have got from testing E10 in their vehicles which has had the ethanol removed using the adding water method.

Cheers. Richard

[radiomike7]

36 minutes ago, Scammell4199 said:

On the subject of duty, whose going to know? I'm guessing that it couldn't be tested for being avgas at the road side?

Cheers. Richard

I don't know the full story but Avgas 100 low lead can contain a dye. It also has a lower volatility than normal petrol and can give starting and part throttle problems.

I mentioned the cat/oxygen sensor problem as I witnessed 10 litres of leaded four star which were used to rescue an early Audi Quattro that had run out of fuel and resulted in a £1k repair bill.

[LarryH57]

Well E10 is here and I noticed a driver's look with horror as I said that I needed to move pumps to use E5 instead, as she had just filled up with E10 without noticing in an equally ancient 20th Century car. But I never saw her up the road waiting for the RAC or AA so perhaps she never noticed!

Edited August 27, 2021 by LarryH57

[radiomike7]

2 hours ago, LarryH57 said:

Well E10 is here and I noticed a driver's look with horror as I said that I needed to move pumps to use E5 instead, as she had just filled up with E10 without noticing in an equally ancient 20th Century car. But I never saw her up the road waiting for the RAC or AA so perhaps she never noticed!

We haven't reached the 1st September yet, the notices on the pumps have been applied in advance.

[ruxy]

It's all a bit of a puzzle , today I took more interest at the local filling station - All the signage & brand new pumps are  ESSO ,  yet read the small print on the signs - it is  Penny Petroleum , the largest indi. based in Northumberland with sites from the Glasgow/Edinburgh belt down to where Northern England ends  LoL

A tanker was present filling the tanks - owned /operated by Flexigrid , so I Googled them up & they are owned by Greenergy  !

[LarryH57]

Well Ruxy, I need to revisit Texaco Petrol in Romsey but each pump was marked accordingly, so i avoided E10 for E5 on the other pumps, luckily without getting in anyones way. Obviously a pointless exercise till next month. Perhaps the guy with the stickers was off till 3rd Sept so did not want to disappoint!

[earlymb]

It's actually not that hard to separate Ethanol from petrol yourself, see this video for the principle:

 

It can be done on a larger scale too, within practical limits of course. Adding food colouring to the water to create a good contrast will help with the separation. This might be an option for vehicles that are only occasionally driven?

[CMP-Phil]

Hi

My condolences to you across the pond who are now facing the introduction on a large scale of E10. When this was done in the states, the effect was immediate and drastic for some vehicles.   Failure of rubber parts often happen within the first tank full.  Common failures included fuel pump diaphragms leaking fuel into crankcase, fuel lines going soft inside would collapse causing fuel starvation.   Another sudden failure was with Jerry Can gaskets would fail often the first time exposed to the E10.

Significant lose in mileage is Common.

Cheers Phil 

 

[Zuffen]

In Australia we've been using E10 (and even E85) with minimal impact on the average vehicle owner.

People who had cars older than 15 years at the time of introduction had some issues with rubber products, but these vehicles were approaching the end of their effective lifecycle. 

For older collector cars or Military Vehicles it's a simple matter of spending a few Dollars or Pounds to replace the rubber lines in the fuel system, the pump diaphragm and perhaps give the carburettor on overhaul ensuring everything is replaced with modern Ethanol resistant products.  How many metres or feet of hose are we talking about on the average MV?  Not much at all.

Our older vehicles won't suddenly melt down into a puddle of scrap because E10 is used.

I put Anti-Ethanol people in the same category as Anti-Vaxers.  People listen to too many horror stories created by the uninformed/uneducated/scare mongers on the Internet and accept it as Gospel.

[Scammell4199]

Question for the aussies and americans who have been using this stuff for a while - i had been led to believe that E10 also attacked the soft metals such as used in fuel pump and carb castings? Is it just rubber it affects? Is there any affect on general engine wear?

Thanks. Richard

[BC312]

The main problem with ethanol in the petrol is that it attracts moisture which rusts or corrodes metals in the fuel system if left over time more than 3 months, plus the ethanol itself can be volitile to certain paints  certain plastics  and rubbers. If you ever tried removing the ethanol from petrol you can see how easy the E petrol takes on water. I tried non E  and E5 on a painted fuel tank done in cellulose paint, the E5 desloved it and made it sticky, but de ethanol was fine didnt touch it what so ever. In the end i had to 2k lacquer the tank which E5 didn't touch. I have made a small drain off on my bike tank balance pipe the lowest part of the tank to remove petrol for the winter. Using non ethanol you wouldn't have to do this. A lot of garden mower service centres use a non ethanol petrol called Alpine which is £25 for 5 litres. What happened was mowers, chain saws were serviced after the season in October but when used in spring the serviced machine wouldn't start, due to the destructive E petrol which caused all types of things like, water absorption in the fuel, rust and corrosion of fuel components and rubber and plastic carb parts going soft especially carb membranes. The E petrol also forms a milky film over time  that blocks fine jets on carbs even worse on modern race bikes. So the Alpine is added after servicing so the machine can start first time after sitting idol through winter.

The E petrols like to be used up in the quickest time, great for normal driving in a modern car where you fill up a tank and use within a week a month at the max. Not very good for storing inside a vehicle over winter where the problem occurs. Use it up quickly and drain when not in use over time.

[LarryH57]

My Land Rover Lwt, over the last few years has had E5 in it and due to Covid, especially last year, was not driven much. The only thing I noticed on my last drive but one, was that I had to give it full revs when the Carb started a momentary spit, as if there was grit in the fuel. I thought it was in need of a new fuel filter which I have yet to fit. But I wonder now if it is E5 coating the needles? Is E5 too low to do much harm. It still starts and drives ok.

Edited September 1, 2021 by LarryH57

[BC312]

1 hour ago, LarryH57 said:

My Land Rover Lwt, over the last few years has had E5 in it and due to Covid, especially last year, was not driven much. The only thing I noticed on my last drive but one, was that I had to give it full revs when the Carb started a momentary spit, as if there was grit in the fuel. I thought it was in need of a new fuel filter which I have yet to fit. But I wonder now if it is E5 coating the needles? Is E5 too low to do much harm. It still starts and drives ok.

The moisture/ water settles at the bottom of the tank so you would get all the crap, so it would spit and cougth and sound its lacking power like fuel starvation like a blocked filter. I assume a well sealed tank with the vehicle stored in good conditions would determine how much moisture contaminates your tank, cold and condensation.

[ruxy]

At least with a Lightweight Land Rover you have underseat fill petrol tank with a large fill aperture to peer through (providing you use a intrinsically safe torch).  You will see beads of water rolling on the bottom of the tank, water contaminated petrol was quite common long before the 'unleaded' days.  Bad garage underground storage tank facilities often the problem.  On such as a S3 / S2A the caps are vented , for safety reasons only become unvented in a vehicle roll-over situation.  The cap breather is the white peg on underside (IIRC this incorporates a fine filter) , the safety is the brass clack valve with spring loaded ball bearing.

Unfortunately with most car petrol tanks - unless you drain the fuel into a container there is no easy check for water at bottom of tank.  A locking cap does aid the prevention of drunkards using your tank as a urinal.