1917 Foden Steam Wagon

[Great War truck]

Had you considered putting it back into WD livery?

 

[QL Driver]

I rather like the Devon CC livery! The WD livery would presumably have to be a guess (and Michael Wilkinson’s is already painted that way), and we’ve already established that it has the wrong body for the WD days.

[Great War truck]

7 hours ago, QL Driver said:

I rather like the Devon CC livery! The WD livery would presumably have to be a guess (and Michael Wilkinson’s is already painted that way), and we’ve already established that it has the wrong body for the WD days.

Sorry. I was joking really. It looks better in its DCC livery.

[Foden7536]

Thank you for your comments. 
 

In 1937 the Foden was fitted with a set of Pickering Governors for driving a stone crusher in the quarry, so as these are on the Foden now I feel that it would be chronologically  incorrect if I were to return it to its WW1 guise. 
 

After it’s life with Devon CC It was sold (in 1950) to Mr Shambrook of Devon (for £18) and then in 1962 to Paul Corin if Cornwall. During this period of ownership it was painted maroon and that is how it was when sent to America in 1966, and likewise when it returned in 1991.

When it was painted maroon, thankfully (for us!) the paint work was not taken back to bare metal. And upon stripping the Maroon paintwork (whilst in the ownership of Colin Wheeler) much of the Devon CC livery was discovered. 
 

personally I have always been an admirer of “the WD Foden” (now owned by Mr Wilkinson) and saw it several times whilst in the ownership of Dennis Brandt. (Incedentally a friend who I help with his collection of Veteran Cars viewed the Foden when it was still in France and has photos of it from that period) 

I’ve attached a few photos which may be of interest. The first two are of it around 1950(ish) as it is minus the body, and has the Devon CC “curtains” around the cab - these were a pair of sheets which slid along a wire (visible in the photo if you look carefully) and I would imagine very welcome when working in the quarry, however some work appears to be going on, as the motion sheets are removed and not in the photos. The third photo is of it when painted Maroon and in the ownership of Toby Slingsby. This was taken at the Parham Rally in West Sussex sometime between 1995 - 2000

 

hope this is of interest. 
 

David

[Foden7536]

A few days off this week has meant I could do some more Foden work. Firstly I got the flywheel off the crankshaft, this now leaves the roller bearings eccentrics to get off then the crank can go for grinding, the journals aren’t in great condition so will definatly benefit from being ground. 
 

 
Having got the cab off and home a couple of weeks ago today I have been stripping the cab with help from a carpenter friend. The cab has certainly had major work in the past, as both the roof and rear boards are clearly not the origionals. There are more than one set of nail holes in the roof cross members, and on the rear planks I found maroon paint down behind the rear cross member, so these were clearly painted prior to being fitted. 
 

The roof cross members are Ash, and due to water getting under the roof canvas several have rotted on the ends (indeed some ends are totally missing!) the roof and rear boards of the cab are tongue and groove pine and are all reusable. The big rear cross member at the bottom of the cab is oak. The is reusable but with some attention! 
 

my aim is to conserve the cab as much as possible. We are going to scarf new pieces of wood into place rather than replace completely, to try and keep the cab as origional as possible. My jig for holding the shape of the cab together has worked well, which I am very pleased about!

 

Something which interested me is that the mortice and tenon joints on the rear of the cab have a 1/2” bolt going up through them, with the bolt neatly recessed into a pocket (with a piece of wood plugging the hole) to pull the joint tightly in together. These proved a pain to undo, but I managed to weld a handle onto the nut, the heat helping to break the rust and then being able to hold this to stop it trying to turn and chew the wood. 
 

hope this is of interest and that the photos help explain today’s work better than my description!

David

[jpsmit]

fascinating - traction engines are a whole world for me - loving this!

[Rootes75]

I think its a very good plan to try and re-use as much of the original timber as you can. We have done the same on projects in the past, keep as much original as we can and carefully graft in new when necessary.

[Foden7536]

Thank you for your comments. I intend to conserve as much of the Foden as possible wherever I can. Likewise I am trying to document what I find as and when I find things so there is a record for the future (and to remind myself when I forget what I did yesterday!)

[Foden7536]

Progressing with work on the Foden, the latest struggle has been trying to get the eccentrics off the crankshaft, they were a right bugger! I ended up using the handy 100 ton press at the farm workshops, which although we weren’t on max pressure it was wound up quite high, so at a guess 60+ ton of pressing and that shifted them! I forgot to take photos of the job in progress as I was on a mission and frankly was so pleased how it went I forgot! Unfortunatly I had to remove the ballance weights to make it fit into the press, something I didn’t really want to do, as the crank grinding firm said they could grind with them attached but in the end I had too! 
 

interestingly the crank has always been a black colour, this turned out to be 100 years of oil and dirt, once this was removed I discovered that the crank was never painted, there isn’t a single spec of any undercoat, red lead, or colour of any sort on the crank, just the machining marks, so this is how it’s going to go back! 
 

Today I’ve mainly been cleaning up the crank, and then crack tested all the radi and key ways, thankfully all is looking good with no flaws being detected, so now I have to wait until the grinders are ready which I was hoping would be this side of Christmas (that dreaded word!) but with lockdown etc coming back I fear it may roll over into next year. In the meantime I will start to work on making new eccentrics with non-knackered rollers and work continues on the cab.

 

sorry for the lack of photos 

 

David

[Scrunt & Farthing]

Dave,  I understand from the Authorities at the scrap bus works, that Matalan are having a winter sale of trousers and untergarments.  Having pressed your crank to 60tons psig I would imagine that their offerings would be timely.  I shall send you the details and highly recommend the plaid riding breeches.

[Foden7536]

Not at all Dave, the big press is a very gentle and controllable lump. With so much power available you can go really slow and steady, and the frame is very very rigid, so you can easily watch what’s happening and ease the load on. 
 

Dave

[8_10 Brass Cleaner]

Dave, having suffered a broken crank on the Marshall, I would check the centre portion between the webs also. Thats where mine broke

[Foden7536]

32 minutes ago, 8_10 Brass Cleaner said:

Dave, having suffered a broken crank on the Marshall, I would check the centre portion between the webs also. Thats where mine broke

Thank you Hedd, that’s much appreciated. I assumed the radi and key ways would be the weak spots, but will certainly follow your advice and get the cans of die-pen out again and do the centre of the webs. 
 

Many thanks

David

[8_10 Brass Cleaner]

This is why

 

Edited November 2, 2020 by 8_10 Brass Cleaner

[Foden7536]

Crikey! How did this show itself, whilst under restoration or in steam? Did it do much damage? I’ve heard of a couple of engines have their flywheels fall off (a Garrett near me had this happen only a few years ago, when the crank sheered next to the main bearing and the flywheel shot backwards and down the road, which must have been very “exciting” for all concerned)

[mammoth]

Looks like there was no radius where eccentric was machined into the web.

[8_10 Brass Cleaner]

Dave, bust going up a rather large hill.

The crank had bust and been welded in the 1930's, we believe after a full astern + steam incident with a child. This broke the crank, a trunk guide and a cab upright (2 1/2 square ash) at least.

No other damage the second time. Though the engine did start to run backwards down the hill, got enough momentum to go over a chock. But it jackknifed the trailer and put a stop to things very quickly.

About a month earlier father experienced a very large noise like something breaking whilst driving down the road, but despite spending half an hour couldn't find any problems. Hindsight suggests that this was the crack getting bigger.

Also during its restoration, as a boy of about 15 I cleaned the crank in a bath of petrol, I swear blind I saw the crack, you know the petrol stayed wet in the crack despite the surface flashing dry. I got dad over and told him, but a lot of studying later the conclusion was that I was seeing things. Clearly I wasn't, but there you go. 

Mammoth has got it in one for this break. Had been cracked many years clearly. Interestingly Marshalls had 4 designs of crank drawn up, we went for a modified Mark 4 with the manufacturer choosing his own radii (which were larger than drawn). A friend with another Marshall tractor suffered the same failure some 5 years later, in the same place. 

I have to say the machining in the middle of a Foden crank looks very sharp also. But the roller eccentrics are ace, usually the limiting factor on a 5 tonner.

My mate is about to take delivery of a new crankshaft for his Foster Wellington tractor restoration. He has started with a bare but original boiler. He has had the cylinder made allready (a compound). 

Edited November 3, 2020 by 8_10 Brass Cleaner

[Foden7536]

The roller bearings eccentrics are certainly a very favourable item my foden carries, as you say Hedd this is usually the limiting factor with the plain cast iron eccentrics other 5 ton wagons have. 
 

The roller bearings are a bit of a puzzle to me at the moment, having looked at most of the other surviving 5 ton Fodens mine seams to be the only one carrying them. Mike Wilkinson’s WD liveried one is slightly newer than mine but is on cast iron. There is nothing on the build sheet saying they were special order, or an experiment etc, and likewise there’s no comment on the build sheet about them being ordered later in its life, where as the fact that Fodens  supplied the Pickering Govenors in 1937 is recorded. As the history of the wagon during preservation is well know, and the fact it spent several decades sat in a museum certainly tells us that they are a pre-preservation fitment. 
 

What’s the chances of finding a nice convenient date stamp on them somewhere...?!

David

[8_10 Brass Cleaner]

The 5 tonner Bill Briggs had was also on roller eccentrics. I believe it went back to Fodens at some point and had them fitted. 

[Citroman]

I was reading a book about the Somme and there was a letter of a soldier in it, whose job it was to collect rifles left on the battelfield. He said the load was so heavy that the only truck they could use for that was the Foden steam truck with trailer. The charge was so bulky  that they had to reinforce the wooden sides of the load bed with iron bars...

Edited December 25, 2021 by Citroman

[CMP-Phil]

This a very interesting read.  Whether you are into steam, or more interested in "modern" stuff, take a few minutes to read this chronicle of preserving a bit of history. 

Well done to all. 

Cheers Phil 

[flandersflyer]

On 11/2/2020 at 10:36 PM, 8_10 Brass Cleaner said:

This is why

 

Inside corners with no radius...

Stress points

[Foden7536]

Sorry for the lack of Foden updates, I’ve still been plodding away but kinda haven’t really got much to show for the work, also I’m terrible at remembering to take photos recording what I’ve been up to, but here’s a quick update:

The crank was in worse condition that I feared, as “steam people” will know, the big ends are lubricated via a oil pot mounted on the big end strap, which commonly either have a wool “trimming” or a pin which acts as a jumper so when the crank goes round the jumper lifts slightly and an amount of oil is fed into the bearing. Usually this is at the top of the oil pot, but on early wagons it is a long pin which opens at the bottom to allow the oil through (hopefully my photos will show this better than my wording!)

At some point the pins had been replaced and the new ones were too long and so have been hammering on the crank (this problem was corrected by the previous owner who fitted new, shorted pins) but they must have been in there a long time as they had scratched grooves into the crank pins which were nearly 1/8” wide and 1/4” deep! 
 

The crank was taken to “Field Engine Services” in Leytonstone (who I can’t recommend highly enough - the workshop is a real time warp, and they completely understand our era engines and are very sympathetic) they had to repair the crank webs by submerged arc welding followed by grinding the main and big end journals. 
 

The end of the crank where the gears run was also worn and tapered, so this was also ground. The key ways on 5 ton fodens (very different to later 6 ton versions) are dovetailed into the crank, these keyways were worn and the keys loose so everything rattled about so the keyways needed truing up, again this is outside my engineering ability so I took the crank to Inca Geometric in Chartham who did these for me - and again made a lovely job of it. New keys could then be ground to suit and fitted so everything is good and tight again and good bearing services.

The roller bearing eccentrics were very very tired, and so needed to be totally rebuilt, again this is well out of my capabilities but I am very fortunate to know an excellent engineer who does lots of vintage car work (Paul Smith Precision Engineer, Gaza Barracks, Sevenoaks Weald) who could do them, so all four (in two pairs) have been remade. This is who also did the dovetail keys.

Something which I found interesting was that the crank has never had any paint on it. It was previously a black colour, but that was simply years of grime! Upon degreasing the crank cleaned up well, so will he left as bright steel as original. I suppose what’s the point in painting it as it’s out of sight and why waste paint on it? - any thoughts please?  

So the actual crank is finished, I need to make a new gear carrier (which slides on the dovetail keys) as obviously the diameter has changed since grinding, for the same reason (and that the old ones were completely knackered) I next need to remake the main and big end bronze bearings, but that’s proving to be quite headache inducing - I’ll explain more about that in a future post...

[Foden7536]

So another project I’ve worked on this last year is the manufacture of the feed water heater, again for the benifit of non steam readers - most wagons, and some traction engine makers (especially Marshall as I’m sure Hedd will correct me on if I’m wrong!?) fitted feed water heaters to use exhaust steam to pre-heat boiler feed water to help improve efficiency. This takes an amount of exhaust steam from the blast pipe (exhaust pipe) and is fed into a cylindrical casing through which a coil of copper pipe carrying boiler feed water passes, thus heating this feed water. The exhaust steam (now condensed back into water) is then drained into the ashpan.

The feed water heater, and associated pipework was completely missing from my Foden when it came back from the US (when it was removed, be it during its working life or earlier in preservation I do not know) but the previous owner had sourced a pair of cast end plates which were unmachined and came with the wagon when I brought it. 
 

The end plates have a groove 1/2” deep and 1/4” Wide, into which the 5” OD steel tube which forms the casing of the heater sits. The tube sits inside by 1/4” then there is 1/4” of gland packing at the end to make the seal. The end castings then have a 3/4” draw bolt passing through the two ends to pull them tight. 
 

forming the spiral copper piping was an intersting job, which actually went better than I was expecting! It is 1/2” bore thick wall copper tube, I annealed it for about 18” at a time then wound it around a mandrel, I found I could only do about half a turn before it worked hardened and needed re-annealing but was pleasantly suprised with the outcome (shame nobody will ever see it!) Interestingly there is  almost 3m of pipe in total in the feed water heater (it’s Only 16” long when fully assembled!)
 

The feed water heater is held in place by two brackets which bolt through the chassis. This was the first job done completely in my new home workshop, so it was nice to actually use it! Again, I hope the photos show what I’ve been upto better than words! 

[Ex-boy]

Excellent workmanship, thank you for posting and power to your elbow.

Steve.