RAF signal lamp bulb

[Yeoman]

Hi guys,

I have got hold of a WW2 RAF bomber crew signalling lamp - 5A/6230 - which is minus a light bulb.

Does anyone have a spare one or know where I could get one from please?

It has a small 3 pin plug on it does anyone have a spare socket for it or know where I could get one from please?

Any help or advice would be appreciated.Thanks.

Kev.

[Yeoman]

I am still looking for a replacement bulb and have come across a 26v 350w bulb - 5L/2334 which looks about the right size but what concerns me is the wattage - 350 - this seems rather high for an in flight morse signalling lamp.Any thoughts anyone please?

Thank you

Kev.

 

[fv1609]

Kev yes that is a very high wattage, apart from it being unnecessarily powerful there would be too much  delay in the filament warming up & cooling  down & would blur the distinction between Morse Code characters. The Navy used high wattage signal lamps but the filaments remained on & the code sent by a series of parallel shutters that were keyed by the operator.

If you posted a picture of the bulb socket it might trigger someone's recollections & also of the  plug you are after.

Depending when it went out of service I may have the signal lamp in some of my FAP 1086 collection, there is a chance that the bulb would have entered the RAF Stores Vocabulary at about the same time & the bulb you require would be something close to 5A/6230.

 

 

[Yeoman]

Hi Clive,

Thanks for your informative reply - much appreciated.

I attach a photo of the bulb socket as you suggested and hope that it may be recognised by someone.

Kev.

 

 

 

 

[Yeoman]

Here is a photo of the plug, it has 2 sets of numbers on it - H7038D-416751-12 and

7045D-466-12-3P-9156.

I am having problems posting more than 1 photo per post so will need to do another to show the plug pins.

Kev

[Yeoman]

Here is a photo showing the pins,the inner circle containing the pins measures 5/8"ths.It is the socket that this plugs into that I am looking for.Any help or advice would be much appreciated.Thanks.

Kev.

[mogmaner]

Could you put a ruler against the build sockets for size reference. 

[Yeoman]

Hi Mogmaner,

That was silly of me ! I should have used a ruler straight away,still here are 3 pictures of the socket with a ruler for reference.I hope that that helps.

Thanks,

Kev.

[RAFMT]

I've checked AP1086 up until 1971, there is no 5A/6230 that I can find - the highest number I've found for the 5A section is 5163 and that's as late as 1972.

Are there any other identifying numbers on there?

[Yeoman]

Hi Bryan,

Thank you very much for looking that number up -  I attach some pictures of the ID markings on the lamp and carrying box.The number is definitely 5A/6230 but strangely the lense is numbered 5A/2335.

Any help or advice would be much appreciated.Thanks.

Kev.

 

[ted angus]

I hate to be a bubble buster, but this lamp has a NATO NSN  therefore it is definitely post WW2    and I would say post 1956 which is when the first transition to NATO format stock numbers began.  The RAF supply Section & Reference of this lamp is 5A 1991239. As marked on the lamp & case-  In the RAF vocab 5A is ground lighting and misc equip.  6230 is the NATO Supply Classification ie the NATO equivalent of 5A - 62 is a group which relates to Light Fixtures And Lamps, 30 will be a more specific class within the group.  99 is the identifier for UK,  1991239 is the individual item reference number.   So you need to be looking for  5A 1991239 in the RAF AP 1086; re the plug you posted I don't think that is original, as supplied the plug should be the same colour as the lamp and none of those numbers relate to RAF stores references. 

  Regards TED

Edited November 16, 2018 by ted angus

[fv1609]

I have FAP 1086 for 1988 & 1992 that list none of those items, nor are they listed in the cross referencing lists into NSNs. So presumably obsolete or at least no longer demandable by 1988.

In 5A there is no Lantern Electric, although there is a Lantern Electrical, which I think is rather different as the bulb it quotes is 6v with a MES fitting.

 

 

[ted angus]

Google searches show 5A 2334 to be the most common RAF version in WW2  thru to early 1950s, most pictures show the lense having a different number to the lamp  I think this is because there were clear, red and green. 

Back in the day the AP 1086 was a night mare most volumes were at least 6 inches thick in loose leaf binders held together with screw fixing. Always riddled with mistakes and omissions. Most of us spanner wielding people would carry a little black book, gradually we would list all the common spares & pt numbers of the items we commonly used. If we found a solution to a bad entry we would leave a paper note in the relevant page before submitting an official suggestion for amendment.  when the microfiche readers were introduced it all turned into a pot luck nightmare !  Amendments were so frequent in the 1086 I doubt anyone has an original copy plus all the hundreds of amendments. TED

 

[fv1609]

Know what you mean Ted, I have a 1955 edition of 16E & that is a very fat book. The only good thing about it is that it lists the vehicles to which the item was fitted, unlike VAOs that gives little away.

[Yeoman]

Thank you all very much for your very informative and interesting replies.It is surprising where a simple request,as I thought, takes you!

The item was advertised as a ' WW2 RAF Air Ministry signalling lamp' and I bought it as such,to find out that it is in fact a NATO lamp of between 1956 and 1988 is not good!!

Would I be right in concluding that this style of lamp was used during WW2 and beyond into the NATO period , the ref number changing to a NATO one when we joined NATO? And that it was used as an inflight signalling lamp in bombers so that radio silence could be maintained?

I am still after a bulb for it, I am assuming that it will be 24v.Can anyone supply me with the bulb's stores ref,a bulb, or let me know where I can get one from please?Thank you.

All the best,

Kev.

[fv1609]

2 hours ago, Yeoman said:

the ref number changing to a NATO one when we joined NATO?

This came later. All NATO countries agreed to accept the NATO Standardization Agreement in 1956. But in the UK this was not implemented until the ratification of the agreement in STANAG 3151 in 1961.

I can't speak for the RAF but in 1965 the Director of Ordnance Services instructed that all new items of supply would be NSN codified.

It was decided that there would be retrospective codification of common user items & the plan extended the retrospective codification task to all domestically catalogued items in all three Services, with a target date of 1971.

Incidentally I saw a lantern like yours at Malvern yesterday for £25 & it had no NSN. It had a red filter so I couldn't see the type of bulb, or indeed if there was one fitted. In the general melee I didn't think it was fair to the trader to start dismantling a thing that I had no intention of buying.

[fv1609]

No doubt you have googled 6230-99-199-1239 & surprised to find there were no hits at all!

The reason is that the item was incorrectly codified.

NSC Group 62 covers Lighting Fixtures & Lamps, more specifically the NSC Class 30 covers Electric Portable & Hand Lighting Equipment. This sounds all perfectly reasonable but this Group is for lighting ie general illumination not signalling equipment.

The correct allocation is Group 58 Communication, Detection & Coherent Radiation Equipment with it in Class 50 for Visible & Invisible Light Communication Equipment.

Giving the correct NSN as 5850-99-199-1239 so you will get a few hits now.

I suspect if the bulb was special to this lamp it might have been codified at the same time with a NSN fairly close to the parent equipment. But if, as is probable, the bulb was already an item of supply it would be codified somewhere but with the NSC 6230.

 

 

[ted angus]

Well I did say back in the day the 1086 was full of errors,    regarding use of NATO NSN, I remember in the early 1970s in Cyprus I was working mainly on Section 4GA and other weapon handling Sections of the vocab  , I think I am right in saying all demands for spares were still  under RAF Sec Ref only. 

Ted

Edited November 20, 2018 by ted angus

[BobbyC]

A little late maybe, however

Around WW2 this was :-

SIGNALLING LAMP, TYPE B (Stores Ref. 5A/2334)

globes (special prefocus cap) were either

Lamp, filament, 12 volts, 30 watts" (Stores Ref. 5A/2339) which became 5L/2339 or

Lamp, filament, 24 volts, 30 watts" (Stares Ref. 5A/2340 which became 5L/2340

Lamp, filament, In early models a spare filament lamp is carried in a clip inside the carrying case, but in
later models the spare filament lamp is carried in a clip in the lamp body. . It is important to keep the
reflector, bulb, and front cover free from steam or moisture, as this produces diffusion and scattering
of the beam and renders the lamp inefficient.

 

The cover (11) (Stores Ref. 5A/2335) consists of an annular steel plate in which is fitted
a disc of clear glass. If necessary a cover (Stores Ref. 5A/2336) containing a green disc or a cover
(Stores Ref. 5A/2337) containing a red disc, may be fitted, these discs may be of glass or synthetic
resin material.

5A/2338 Box For complete lamp
5A/2368 Box For coloured fronts

5E/1611 Cable, connecting Complete with Plug, 2-pin, type A (5C/959)

Yours seems to be missing the rubber eye-piece (1)

Cheers,

Bobby

Edited July 3, 2020 by BobbyC

[Citroman]

Light bulbs are usually measured in millimeters of base diameter. If the lamp has a bayonet fitting it will have a Ba prefix. So it could be like this: Ba 15  24V. If i see the bulb on the picture it looks like that for a fog lamp or long beam. If it has bayonet check if it is a 2 or 3 pin version. The one on the picture looks to have a spring clamp???

Good luck.

[Dave S]

I have just been asked to repair one of these.

Is there a user manual available, even a photocopy will do.

This one has an ON-OFF switch, plus the signal switch in the handle.

When it is switched on the bulb illuminates and the signal switch does nothing.

What is the mode of operation so I can revise the wiring correctly.

Thank you

[Citroman]

Do they signal with a moving shade or the lamp going on and off?

[7VHU]

Any relation of the ALDIS lamp?

[Dave S]

On 8/29/2023 at 7:51 PM, 7VHU said:

 

 

On 8/29/2023 at 7:51 PM, 7VHU said:

 

 

On 8/29/2023 at 7:51 PM, 7VHU said:

Any relation of the ALDIS lamp?

I thought the ALDIS lamp used a permanent light and the signally was by opening and closing shutters, but I may be wrong

Edited September 6, 2023 by Dave S
multiple replies

[Dave S]

this one is an ON OFF switch for the lamp, I rewired and it all works now