andym Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 Has anyone else seen this? https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/e10-petrol-consumer-protection-and-fuel-pump-labelling From the FBHVC: "Dear Enthusiast, The Department of Transport has issued a consultation document on the subject of introducing higher levels of ethanol in petrol. Many older vehicles are likely to suffer damage and possibly dangerous fuel leaks if the E10 grade of petrol is used without modification to their fuel systems. For the purposes of this consultation the Government is focussing on vehicles more than 25 years old. Whilst wishing to introduce the higher ethanol level E10 grade of fuel, the Government are guaranteeing a 'protection grade' of petrol at the E5 grade that is equivalent to the currently available 95 RON petrol. However this guarantee will only last until 2020 when further consultation will take place. It is likely that on the introduction of E10 at the 95 RON level, the currently available 'Super' grades with an octane level of 97 RON or higher, will cease to be available. The Federation has designed a survey on petrol useage in older vehicles which will provide valuable evidence in the consultation response. Please complete the survey and help the Federation preserve our right to use 'Yesterday's Vehicles on Tomorrow's Roads'. The survey can be accessed by clicking this link. Ethanol Survey. If you wish to read the consultation document it can be found by following this link Department for Transport consultation. Please encourage your friends and fellow enthusiasts to complete the survey, just forward this email and they will be able to follow the survey link. The survey will close on 31 August 2018 in order to collate the results for the Federation's response to the consultation. A copy of the response will be made available on the Federation's website. Thank you for supporting the Federation of British Historic Vehicle Clubs and helping to keep historic vehicles on the road. Paul Chasney Director - Research" The survey is here: https://paulc1.typeform.com/to/Bt7HKS Andy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maurice Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 There is a solution for this , if you Buy AFGAS Aviation gasoline . This is still the old spec fuel , and can also stay a lot longer in your parked up vehicle without degrading so fast . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diana and Jackie Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 6 hours ago, Maurice said: There is a solution for this , if you Buy AFGAS Aviation gasoline . This is still the old spec fuel , and can also stay a lot longer in your parked up vehicle without degrading so fast . And I suppose we just take a trip to our nearest airfield or airport? Diana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Ashby Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 7 hours ago, andym said: The survey is here: https://paulc1.typeform.com/to/Bt7HKS Andy Done and submitted Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maurice Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 over here I can , every airfield with small single propeller aircrafts sells it . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T8Hants Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 Do you then run foul of H.M. Customs because Avgas hasn't the correct fuel duty on it? Do you get snowed under a mountain of paperwork trying to be legal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maurice Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 No , there is tax on this fuel , it is even slightly more expensive, then 95 E10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radiomike7 Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 1 hour ago, T8Hants said: Do you then run foul of H.M. Customs because Avgas hasn't the correct fuel duty on it? Do you get snowed under a mountain of paperwork trying to be legal? Yes and yes, but it can be done, Avgas duty is £0.377pl while petrol/diesel is £0.5795pl. Avgas is specially formulated for long stroke high altitude slow revving aero engines and can cause problems with starting and low speed running in automotive use. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
attleej Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 Dear All, Even the E5 bio petrol caused serious problems with the REME museum's Conqueror ARV. I made up a fuel manifold to supply each of the 24 electronic fuel injectors. I used 15mm copper pipe and soft soldered on a compression fitting to supply each injector. In terms of fuel leaks it worked fine for some time. Then suddenly it was spewing petrol everywhere! The bio fuel had attacked the soft soldered joints. Even though the joints had plenty of cross sectional area of solder, they still failed. The new system that I have made has no soft soldered joints. This suggests that many vehicles will need a completely new fuel system with no soft soldered joints anywhere. I will shortly be posting tales of woe about Meteor tank engines and petrol contamination of the sump and the possible effect on the white metal of the crankshaft bearings. I suspect that the reason why Government has not moved faster to E10 is more to do with issues concerning the economics of supply and possible adverse effects there rather than the effect on old vehicles. I think that E10 will be ubiquitous in due course whatever problems it causes to older vehicles. The problems for our vehicles are manageable provided one is not too worries about originality. The real problems will be for those with later vehicles (especially cars) with sophisticated fuel systems which are not tolerant of E10. I expect that the response from classic car enthusiasts will reflect this. John 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferretfixer Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 Survey completed & submitted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scammell4199 Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 Survey completed & submitted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxy Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 Consultation , what consultation - the RAC says :- https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/emissions/what-is-e10-fuel-and-how-could-it-affect-you/ Unfortunately - they don't elucidate just what the metal(s) attack problem is , keep on Goooooooogling I suppose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diana and Jackie Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 I fitted a brand new fuel level gauge inside the fuel tank of my CVRT, the state of it now is shocking. Bio fuel also destroyed the plastic sight glass as it destroys most plastics, the only type it is claimed it will not destroy is PET, or PETG. which I have replaced the original with. So far it seems OK. Diana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T8Hants Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 By all accounts it also eats mazac carburetors, and the brass jets within them over time. Fuel tanks that have been petsealed have also been reported to have major problems as it destroys that as well, and I think vast areas of rain forest have been cut down to grow the 'biomass' on. Its so called green credentials are very suspect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scammell4199 Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 Some of the replies here suggest that this E10 petrol is already in circulation??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maurice Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 E10 is the Standard for 95 octane petrol now in Belgium . Germany has it as well . If you fill the E10 Stuff in a glass jar , you can notice that there is a 2 layer shift after a certain time . so top is good stuff the bottom part you have to throw away . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diana and Jackie Posted September 6, 2018 Share Posted September 6, 2018 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatchFuzee Posted September 15, 2018 Share Posted September 15, 2018 Has anyone tried removing ethanol either small scale as in the video above or up scaling for MV use? On a trip to Bicester Heritage I found these:- Leaded or Unleaded ethanol-free petrol and Ethanil kit to remove ethanol from petrol:- https://www.classic-oils.net/Ethanol-Free-Fuel/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxy Posted September 15, 2018 Share Posted September 15, 2018 Totally barmpot when you have to dispose of 10% of what you have paid £ for , work involved. Considering you have paid at least £2.50 per gal. duty and then the 20% VAT on top . I don't fancy calculating what the unadulterated unleaded is going to cost £ per/gal. So , is there a practical use for raw ethanol ?? , I suppose sell it on cheap to the DERV avoidance Mazola boys ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatchFuzee Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 21 hours ago, ruxy said: I don't fancy calculating what the unadulterated unleaded is going to cost £ per/gal. Ready to use ethanol free petrol is very very expensive:- Sunoco Optima 100 RON - Leaded ethanol-free petrol (25 litre) £ 97.95 (incl. VAT) = £17.81 per gallon Sunoco Optima 98 RON - Unleaded ethanol-free petrol (25 litre) £ 94.95 (incl. VAT) = £17.23 per gallon https://www.classic-oils.net/Sunoco-Optima Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scammell4199 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 So is E5 what is currently at the pump in UK? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatchFuzee Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 3 hours ago, Scammell4199 said: So is E5 what is currently at the pump in UK? From the E10 petrol, consumer protection and fuel pump labelling Government consultation, published 20 July 2018:- Unleaded petrol in the UK contains up to 5% bioethanol, a grade known as E5. E10 petrol contains up to 10% bioethanol and is not yet available in the UK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scammell4199 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 So are our fuel systems being eaten away now then? Also, is there a distinction between bioethanol and oil derived ethanol in terms of its ability to eat fuel systems? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatchFuzee Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 1 hour ago, Scammell4199 said: So are our fuel systems being eaten away now then? Also, is there a distinction between bioethanol and oil derived ethanol in terms of its ability to eat fuel systems? Ethanol can and does attack rubber fuel lines, carburettor mountings, and diaphragms etc. Nitrile and Viton are examples of ethanol resistant rubber. Bio-ethanol and petroleum (also natural gas, coal, and ethylene) based ethanol are chemically indistinguishable—they are both the same compound, C2H5OH. The only difference between the two is the isotopic composition of the carbon atoms therefore the damage to fuel system would be the same but I don't think that there is petroleum based ethanol in UK fuel because it is not "green". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scammell4199 Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 Thanks for the science lesson. Yes burning thousands of gallons of diesel to farm ethanol producing crops is really green! its like power stations burning biomass thats been shipped half way round the world. So worst case we can use avgas in our petrol burning vehicles because thats pure petrol - correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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