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1911 Dennis Fire Engine 3035


mammoth

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Mammoth ,

Stick with the Mercedes engine, it will be far easier for you.........and let me have this Dennis engine!🤗🤗🤗

What a find! I wonder whether it is just a teaser or whether it could change hands?

 

Best wishes,

Barry.

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1 hour ago, mammoth said:

It is indeed pressed brass and looking like soldered  joins, though as we dig deeper I am taking nothing for granted.

There are some photos here of me bodging together our brass radiator (A neater job has been performed since, I feel the urge to add). 

https://union.ic.ac.uk/rcc/rcsmotor/gallery/index.php/2010s/2014-15/Fresher-s-Week-inc-Radiator-Rebuild/20141008_183443

I was hoping that there would be pictures of the back of the top tank, but there do not seem to be any good ones. However working from memory I would say that your existing top-tank has all the normal fittings, and might well be a modified original brass radiator top tank mated to a later core and side members. 

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29 minutes ago, Asciidv said:

Mammoth ,

Stick with the Mercedes engine, it will be far easier for you.........and let me have this Dennis engine!🤗🤗🤗

Is that a Dennis / White and Poppe engine? 

It does suffer from the common crank-too-high problem mentioned by Ben, but does look to be fairly narrow. 

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I have really enjoyed the extra photos. The radiator header tank is a work of art, there may be some of the original recycled fittings but I suspect all the sheet brass is replacement as the original would not have had the radii on the front.

The engine would look great in this chassis but unfortunately is not one manufactured by White and Poppe. I tried to purchase this one but the owner would not pass it on; hopefully you will have more luck. It appears narrow enough to fit between the rails; I think it would also require some minor modifications as the rotation is incorrect giving four reverse gears!

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Andy, looking at the radiator resto photos reminded me that I need to restore my wings back to the original 'flare angle' as they are bent and look quite manic at the moment. Can you put one of those electronic angle blocks on top of the wings and across the chassis.

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1 hour ago, mammoth said:

Andy, looking at the radiator resto photos reminded me that I need to restore my wings back to the original 'flare angle' as they are bent and look quite manic at the moment. Can you put one of those electronic angle blocks on top of the wings and across the chassis.

I don't have one of those angle blocks (how embarassing) but might be able to sort something out at the weekend. 

Looking on Google, LP83989 seems to have a few degrees of flare:

https://goo.gl/images/fRX49c

But FA1075 (One of Asciidv's ) seems to have completely flat wings:

https://goo.gl/images/1oKCos

Barry can probably do a statistical analysis, he has an infinite number of N-types (for statistical purposes)

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  • 1 year later...

I have come across a magazine article which identifies  3035 as the first Dennis fire engine in New South Wales. It had the 350 gallon Gwynne pump and was delivered in January 1912 and placed into service at HQ in Sydney while a sister engine went to Newcastle. The original invoice for 3035 survives and I am trying to get a copy of that along with some nice photos of it in service. By 1921 it was stationed at Manly (a coastal suburb of northern Sydney) still in immaculate original condition.

A Special mystery for Ben to solve - the invoice for order 1702 lists  chassis as 3035 BUT the engine and body numbers which are stamped on the plate for 3033!  - Is 3033 the sister engine?

If I can get hold of drawings for the wooden wheels I will have a set made. Likewise the body.

Edited by mammoth
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  • 1 year later...

Some updates following research enquiry to Museum of Fire, Penrith.

NSW Fire Brigades record that 3035 (sic) and 3055 were delivered together on 30th Jan 1912 and were allocated fleet numbers 56 and 57 without any notation of which fleet No was allocated to which chassis.  No. 56 went to headquarters and was disposed of in 1931 by way of auction while 57 went to Newcastle where it remained until withdrawn in 1929. No record of disposal. The obviously poor record keeping procedures of the time did not identify the clerical error of using the wrong chassis No.

Chassis 3055 is recorded as having engine 4729 and body 3262.

I believe this is what the original motor looked like

176274093_WP4cylengine.thumb.jpg.e78d294583b6abc38fc581bd63ef7fd7.jpg

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As far as getting new wooden wheels go Ben advises that the wheels were probably outsourced and hence there are no Dennis drawings. However, he has found a drawing of a smaller wheel which is helpful in the general scheme of things as it matches the remains of mine construction wise. What I need now is some wheel measurements from LE9588  (diameters and width of bands and tyres) which was built the same year and only a few chassis numbers apart although I understand it is currently laid up at Woburn (?) and not on public display.

9000-15682 (1).tif

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I am not sure how much use the dimensions from LE9588 will help. Although a similar model yours is actually a heavier weight version. LE9588 has a similar back axle but runs on single rear tyres; the rear springs only have shackles at the rear; yours have shackles front and rear and the axle alignment is constrained by locomotive style horn brackets (not present on LE9588).

I believe according to the build sheets they were "860x90" (front and rear) tyres on the LFB pumps for 1911. I am pretty certain these are Avon tyre sizes, so the 860 refers to outside diameter rather than band size. I suspect the band size is 720 but can't be certain.

Although later, a better match for your wheels is probably ED-810 (owned by a member of this forum).

The engine picture you posted is an earlier version (probably 1907/08) but pretty similar. By 1911 the serpentine water connections had been dispensed with and the connections were made between the cylinders at the centre line. 

I hope the works production order for your chassis survives as it should answer most of the questions and I will finally be able to give you some definitive answers. The archive is once again welcoming visitors but I imagine there are still restrictions in place and as you know this made our last visit less productive than usual. Five hours of driving for a couple of documents (ordered in advance) means we have to continue with other projects at the moment.

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Thanks for that very useful information. It is amazing that chassis design only 4 numbers apart could be so different, definitely a trap for the unwary.

If 860 is the outside diameter and allowing for band and tyre thickness X 2 the rim size might even be less? Also in this very early era I am guessing that a shakeout to standard sizes had yet to happen. My plan is to have the (wooden wheel) wheel and tyre bands custom made in which case there will not be a need to build to what became a standard size.

853492008_DennisTheadengine (1).pdf

This is the correct (?) version but not such a good image.

Stay safe Ben

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For those following this thread and wonder what it will end up looking like, here is a link to my own similar Dennis;

1914 Dennis 'N' Type

You may wonder why there is a preponderance to wheel pictures. This was because Steven is interested in having new wooden wheels made to make his machine authentic.

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There is a fair amount on the internet about building wagon type wood wheels but very little that covers  the lorry era in Britain. Thanks to Barry's fabulous input a lot of questions have been answered, however more are raised about the rim/tyre diameter which is actually smaller than expected. I am sure all will be revealed once his wheels are fully dismantled. 

My plan is to have a set of wheels on hand before the restoration starts in earnest. There is also the small matter of a house extension with preliminary underpinning which is at the front of the queue.

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With the prospect of some new wheels on the horizon I prised off a rear hub cap to reveal a neat bead of weld fixing the modern rim to both the hub and the half shaft......things just got complicated!

2057299469_aec027.thumb.JPG.3536aeb7fad653b4d818be494d7f8150.JPG

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