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Scotland to Ban Petrol and diesel car sales by 2032


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Without going into the merits or otherwise of the ban, it is important to remember that it is the sale of new petrol & diesel vehicles that is going to be banned, not their use.

 

According to some industry analysts, by 2032 hybrid and electric technology will be so advanced that there won't be any demand for pure internal combustion engined vehicles anyway.

 

Typical politicians: decreeing something that is going to happen anyway, to make themselves look good.....

 

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Political ways and means , remember Y2K and end of Leaded 4 star / LRP issues.

 

To quote the AA

 

3. Continue using leaded four-star

 

When four-star was withdrawn from sale a concession to the regulations allowed 0.5% of petrol sales to be leaded, for 'characteristic' vehicles. But there are now only very small quantities sold for historic vehicles by licensed garages who are members of the Federation of British Historic Vehicle Clubs (FBHVC).

 

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Burning oils 28 sec. kero and 'cherry' will still be around in rural area. In very cold winters there was a concession for use of kero instead of DERV for transport concerns (they had to keep a strict record - to pay the ££ tax). More of the problem will be with a private diesel engine car , with petrol cars - I can see a boost to the propane conversion industry . Modern rail inject diesels seem out of the loop now for propane fumigation etc.

 

Yes , politicians gobbing it , consider Scotland population 5.3 million England population 53 million , therefore with the media(s) that are basically propaganda - you should just hear from the mouth of Scottish leader 1/10th of that of the English leader. However Nicola Sturgeon seems to effectively reversed this situation , this weeks outburst on electric cars being a typical example..

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I'm not a Petrochemical expert but I was told that petrol and diesel is a part of the cracking process of oil. From that oil we get plastics, paints and all sorts of other stuff that we don't even think about. We will still need all our other products so does this mean that the advent of EVs will also see a new petrol and diesel mountain?

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It is true that petrol and kero are towards the 'light ends' of a hydro-cracker and that there is little scope to take more petrol and less diesel or vice versa. However my understanding is that DERV is now just a liquid mix of all sorts (inc. bio) such that it is / meets BS , also that the source (base-stock) of the better 'premium' DERV is in fact reformed from natural gas - so is considered a synthetic.

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I was talking to a neighbour over the Bank Holiday weekend who had just come back from a month in Germany working with a colleague who owns a Tesla S. The trick apparently isn't to charge the battery overnight but to keep it topped up by "sipping" through the day when stopping for lunch or a cup of coffee. With the Tesla "supercharger" that's very effective for someone doing a lot of mileage on relatively short trips, especially as the charging is free for the life of the car. You do, of course, need the infrastructure to do so.

 

Andy

that sounds like a huge PITA, on top of traffic, planning your trip, making appointments, etc. you now have to worry about charging stations along the way every day! just couldn't do it :-( I don't carry a cell phone for just that reason, it's like a tether , an electronic device that controls me instead of serving me

IMO an acceptable EV would be one I charge twice a week, Like Thursday night and Sunday night. I commute 54 miles a day, so the new Leaf with 235 mile range would fill that requirement quite nicely. I hope my next commuter car is an EV, hopefully one that still has a brake pedal :D

every time I have to do an oil change, which is quite often as we both drive a lot, I dream about saying goodbye to the oil , the filters, the disposal of old oil, all that. It's fine for a hobby vehicle, boats, off-road, MV, etc. but tired of oil and gas for every day use

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Without going into the merits or otherwise of the ban, it is important to remember that it is the sale of new petrol & diesel vehicles that is going to be banned, not their use.

 

It's the sale of new SOLEY petrol & diesel vehicles. Hybrids will still need petrol (or possibly diesel) so the sale of hydrocarbon fuels won't suddenly vanish overnight.

 

Andy

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, oh and the most important one of all, no Main battle tank will ever charge into the fray on a battery :-D

 

 

Actually, I'm not so sure...

Imagine having no fuel cell to rupture and burn, no heat signature at idle, distribute batteries around the hull so any one hit won't disable the vehicle and either a single set of motors or hub motors in each road wheel so you can take several hits and keep moving. Oh, and as quiet as you can be and still run on tracks.

The combat advantage to an electric MBT is enough that I suspect it will happen eventually.

 

The logistic disadvantage is of course not insignificant, I can imagine some sort of towed generator that gets dropped as you get to the field of battle or large truck-mounted tenders.

 

Zero Electric Motorcycles is already selling bikes to police and military customers, including for combat purposes (think infiltration fast-attack).

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that sounds like a huge PITA, on top of traffic, planning your trip, making appointments, etc. you now have to worry about charging stations along the way every day! just couldn't do it :-( I don't carry a cell phone for just that reason, it's like a tether , an electronic device that controls me instead of serving me

IMO an acceptable EV would be one I charge twice a week, Like Thursday night and Sunday night. I commute 54 miles a day, so the new Leaf with 235 mile range would fill that requirement quite nicely. I hope my next commuter car is an EV, hopefully one that still has a brake pedal :D

every time I have to do an oil change, which is quite often as we both drive a lot, I dream about saying goodbye to the oil , the filters, the disposal of old oil, all that. It's fine for a hobby vehicle, boats, off-road, MV, etc. but tired of oil and gas for every day use

 

I'm considering electric for my next commuter too because of the minimal maintenance and also my electricity is virtually free with a large solar array. Electric car for work, ICE for fun on the weekends.... The only catch is there seems to be nothing in the mid range performance-wise at the moment. There are a few super slow shopping trolleys and then the very fast but very expensive Teslas.

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Actually, I'm not so sure...

Imagine having no fuel cell to rupture and burn, no heat signature at idle, distribute batteries around the hull so any one hit won't disable the vehicle and either a single set of motors or hub motors in each road wheel so you can take several hits and keep moving. Oh, and as quiet as you can be and still run on tracks.

The combat advantage to an electric MBT is enough that I suspect it will happen eventually.

 

The logistic disadvantage is of course not insignificant, I can imagine some sort of towed generator that gets dropped as you get to the field of battle or large truck-mounted tenders.

 

Zero Electric Motorcycles is already selling bikes to police and military customers, including for combat purposes (think infiltration fast-attack).

 

Electric drive for MBTs is already happening, but they'll still need an onboard diesel generator. It's hardly a new idea either, the Sd. Kfz. 184. Elefant was a petrol-electric vehicle.

 

Andy

Edited by andym
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Most large quarry dumpers are diesel/elecric, there are some that can run on overhead pantograps to get mor power on steep haul roads.

Some years ago Volvo did have a prototype 40 tonner that had a pantograph for tesing purposes, don't know what the outcome was. They also had a gas turbine / electric 7'5 tonner.

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One of the largest years dump trucks ago was made in Scotland I think, the 3 axle Terex Titon. Lectra Haul and the others were 2 axle. Merrymans had a Diesel electric Russian bulldozer it kept blowing its main fuse that was replaced with a 6 inch nail. Wabco used to make a diesel electric Motor Scraper. Some of the very large gold mines in South Africa had overhead electrical power on the long gradients. Problems with electric supply have meant large mining operations have tended to go for the convienience of Diesel Mechanical drive. Electric and rope front shovels are still the most efficient large face loaders. Politicians are paranoid about the ordinary persons car but indifferent and actually subsidise aircraft to cover us and the countryside with unburnt fuel. Shipping is only just starting to be recognised as a major polluter. How long before the new Scandinavian electric cable link with the U.K. becomes carbon neutral? When Kielder reservoir was first built there were supposed to be generators instaled that was not done. One has been retro fitted but there is no political will to make it work as originaly designed. Hydro electric power is treated as an oddity in the U.K. Our roads will be dug up next to fit underground electric wave technology to power vehicles.

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Kielder reservoir has water turbo alternators , always has from inception - big one and a little one (vertical shafts) . power house below dam-head at north side . o'head gantry crane + IIRC the BIG one on 3 levels below ground - cold on a hot day in summer down there , most of noise water passing through the pipes. Forget the manufacturers, I think the only major overhaul was 2005 , a team from a power station in Yorkshire did the work.

 

Gilbert Gilks and Gordon at Kendal , possibly the Rolls Royce for water turbines - seemed mostly for India & China , apparently the tax on electricity generation from hydro. prevented many sales in UK.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Yes a good sensible article.

 

However it will go a little bit differently to that described.

 

Cars can now do upto 500 miles on a single charge...there is no technical reason why not...as battery tech improves and it will, in the next ten years all of the options under consideration triple or quadruple battery density...so 1500 to 2000 mile ranges, even if they just double the density then we will see cars doing 1000 miles range.

 

if you charge at home how often do you travel 1000 miles away from home or work. not often I would say...

 

I have three electric cars...and a diesel car...(and a load more but thats not the point here )

 

the twizy does no more than 50 miles range, i never charged it anywhere but at home and work...work was 20 miles away...i used it to go to and from work. now sold...

the zoe 1 does upto 100 miles we have only ever charged it three or four times away from home when we rather excitedly tried to go big distances in it...it works but it takes too long so is impractical for anything other than short range upto 50 miles journeys.

Zoe 2 has upto 250 mile range and the real world range is 200 miles...We have traveled to the lake district 360 miles and to Lancashire 300 miles and charged just the once on the way. that is workable...

 

My friend has a Tesla, he has just driven to Amsterdam one way 400 miles with no charge needed on the way. He can charge his Tesla with 80% of the range in about an hour...

 

It is possible to drive long distances without the need for using the public chargers... so the number of charging stations isn't that important, charging at home and work is likely to be the more important issues initially. However as I say above if we had a car with 1000 mile range, I have just come back from Amsterdam, 750 miles round trip...if I hasd used my current electric, no matter how many charging stations there were, with just 200 mile range it would have been impractical, but if the car has 1000 mile range then bingo its easy...

 

in all honesty driving more than 400 or 500 miles in a day isn't very common so once we have longer range cars charge points will almost be irrelevant...

 

i know we will hear about people living in blocks of flats and all that but that's again just a process, if you have a parking space you can have a charge point, it will just take a bit of time to do this for the people without garages or car parking at their home...

 

the reality is that they are coming and nothing anyone says is going to change it. be excited it is really cool and really cheap too if you get solar panels and charge it with them, it costs nothing to run ....

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In general I agree with Paul but it should be said that the only reasion that electric vehicles are relatively cheap to run is that there is vastly more tax on petrol and diesel than on electricity. Obviously the huge subsidy on the purchace price of EVs and their even bigger extra initial cost will gradually come down as production volumes go up but that will be spoilt by the government inventing a way to tax their use. This is something they will have to do to replace the vast income that they presently get from fuel related taxes.

 

As you can't identify taxed and untaxed electricity once you have charged your car with it we will then have to have a system of charging for the actual use of roads, probably by a GPS black box, which will also know when you exceed the speed limit and can automaticaly fine you......... >:(.

 

Similarly, solar panels are only relevent if they are heavily subsidised as they are now (and you use them to feed electricity into the grid in exchange for other electricity that you charge your electric car with overnight). Yes they will also get cheaper to produce but the subsidies will reduce too. I think that although it is certain that we have to vastly reduce our use of fossil fuels there is a huge cost increase in any of the alternatives and we are just going to have to get our heads round that.

 

One positive suggestion I have is that when battery tech gets to the point of allowing a genuine range of at least 500 miles in a vehicle that still has some luggage space and is affordable, that it should be possible for manufacturers to agree to standard formats for replacable battery packs. We could then buy a car with say a 5 or 10 year lease agreement on battery use. when the battery needs charging you either do it yourself at home or go to a "filling station" as we do now and physicaly swap the battery for a fully charged one. That way the batteries that are life expired can be the responsibility of the battery company and will not result in the scrapping of the rest of the car on purely economic grounds, the battery change over should be quicker than it is at present to fill a car with liquid fuel, and we will not all need to have charging facilities at home. It would also mean that automotive batteries could be taxed......>:( And stolen !

 

David

Edited by David Herbert
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For comparison, a L322 Range Rover (the previous shape to the current ones) weighs 2.6 tons, has a fuel tank that weighs just over 110 kg when full of diesel and has a range of over 500 miles in the real world. Battery tech will have to improve quite a bit to compete but it is not impossible.

 

The Apple car will of course have its own charger connector that is very special and only available from 6 major city centre dealers.

 

David

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