WW1 Peerless lorry restoration

[Scrunt & Farthing]

Steve,  those round-headed coach bolts (spoke rivets I guess is the correct term) that go through the base of the spokes, can they not be gassed off/ground back and the hub flange be pulled forward w/ your puller? 

Dave

 

[Prague1996]

Hi Steve, have you thought of using an induction heater tool on the bearing race? I've not used one myself, but in theory it should be possible to provide very localised heat to the race (as in cherry red) without damaging the wooden wheel, and too much heat dissipating into the shaft. The one major downside is they are expensive to buy, but it maybe possible to hire one.....just a thought...keep up the great work.

Shaun

[peter75]

Hi Steve.

One trick we use on the farm is to carefully run a weld around the centre of the bearing with stick welder with the power turned up to get heat into it. I have also used the stick welder to cut bearings out on high power but it isn't pretty!

 

 

[Zuffen]

As the bearing is knackered why not use a 1mm slitting disc in the angle grinder and cut a few slices into the inner race.  This could/should remove some tension from the inner race.

Then using a socket (or equivalent) that fits over the axle try and drive the bearing further onto the axle with a sledge hammer. 

This should break the rusted joint and then allow the hydraulic puller to remove it.

[dgrev]

What about using an oxy-acetylene torch with a welding tip to apply heat to the inner race whilst as the same time using the hydraulic puller?

I would try at just one location down the length of the inner race rather than heating the whole circumference.

I am working on the assumption that the exterior bearing is the culprit and that the interior bearing is not the problem?

Expect a grease oil/fire and be ready to deal with it.

[dgrev]

Wow, 4 attempts at "Submit Reply" before the message went through. Wonder why?

I started trying to send the previous message yesterday.

[Old Bill]

Hello Chaps.

Many thanks for all of your thoughts and suggestions. They are all much appreciated.

Spark erosion would certainly eat through the bearing but it would be a pain to set up with seven feet of axle on the end! Worth keeping in mind though. The front flange and the centre hub are all one piece so I don't think that knocking the bolts through would help us much, unfortunately. The general concensus seems to be that getting heat into the bearing race to crack the joint is the way to go. I think I would have had a go with oxy-acetylene if I had that kit available. We have never gone that way but have stuck with propane over the years. Just now and again, oxy-acetylene would be nice to have! I did consider investing in oxy-MAPP gas equipment. Does anyone have any experience of it? What about a carbon-arc torch? Are they any good?

I like the idea of an induction heater so I must see what is available in that area. Running a heavy weld around the race would also get a lot of heat in quickly. I like that idea, even though my welding is diabolical! Getting the race moving with a big hammer also has some appeal.

Plenty of food for thought there. Thank you all very much.

Steve  😀

[David Herbert]

I have used MAPP gas for cutting when it is necessary to hand carry the kit cross country for some distance. With an aluminium oxygen cylinder filled from a half used full size cylinder it works very well and has no recurring costs, just the refills. I like it.

I think that shocking the inner bearing by wacking it with as big a hammer as possible via a 1" diameter drift is the lowest tech way to go.

David

[racer]

Evenin Gents,

An interesting problem because we all want you to save every part of that assembly !

Try applying penetrating fluid to the axle / inner bearing area then using a copper drift keep hammering the inner race down from all sides as though you want to seat it further, after a while the seal that has formed with the axle will give up and the race will be loose enough to pull off.

 

Andy

[Motleyholt]

My 2 pennies worth would be repeated heating and cooling and hammer the bearing inwards to break the joint. A tubular drift and sledge or air chisel being my weapons of choice. When the joint breaks apply the puller. There should be enough free play in the bearing for it to move inwards and you can apply much greater shock therapy that way. Or last resort gas axe or plasma cut carefully through the inner race working inwards to save the axle. Assume the inner race will just stay on the axle if it is stuck?

[Asciidv]

An induction heater is a magic tool to have in your armoury but in this case it would not function as the item has to be inside the induction coil. Motleyholt suggested using a plasma torch to cut the bearing out and this would get my vote. A plasma cutter is easily controllable with instant on/off and with a precise cutting line. Many garages/bodyshops will have one too and I have one sitting on my bench which unfortunately is a little too far away from Steve.

[Motleyholt]

39 minutes ago, Motleyholt said:

My 2 pennies worth would be repeated heating and cooling and hammer the bearing inwards to break the joint. A tubular drift and sledge or air chisel being my weapons of choice. When the joint breaks apply the puller. There should be enough free play in the bearing for it to move inwards and you can apply much greater shock therapy that way. Or last resort gas axe or plasma cut carefully through the inner race working inwards to save the axle. Assume the inner race will just stay on the axle if it is stuck?

Inner race should read inner bearing. 

My plasma will cut 35mm but still requires a degree of care as it will cut anything you point it at. In theory if you get 80% through moving in towards the centre then you will be able to split the bearing with a chisel in the cut you have made. Hopefully with all the suggestions you will get the right result soon. Good luck.

[mammoth]

Interestingly, over here in Aus so many people were resistant to the idea of handing over their first born to BOC to get oxy that privateers have got on the scene with own your own bottle type schemes. The upshot has been that BOC has not only cut their prices by more than half but have introduced human staff in the accounts office.

Oxy is the way to go with a concentrated point of heat. I have been using oxy propane which is good for heating but  chews through the oxygen at a higher rate than acetylene and is not good enough for fusion welding. 

 

For this job I would be recommending the use of oxy acetylene with a large welding tip, and as previously mentioned do not heat the whole circumference just one point of the bearing - need to keep the axle as cool as possible to create the expansion differential. ...If only there was a way to get liquid nitrogen (from your vet) to the axle...

[andypugh]

Maybe a mag-drill and a carbide drill bit to drill a hole axially through the inner race. 

(Spark erosion with a tubular cutter to do exactly the same thing would probably also work, and would be more dependable when it broke through. No chance of adding a broken carbide drill bit to the problem.)

Maybe someone hires these out? https://www.eurospark.co.uk/product/tr100-broken-tap-remover/

 

[Cel]

It looks like the inner race is accessible enough to weld a bushing on with a hole with fine thread at one side, a bit like a puller. That way you apply the force directly to the stuck part. Good welding skills are required, and basic electrodes would be my preferred choice. 

Good luck!

Marcel 

[Scrunt & Farthing]

On 12/28/2021 at 6:37 PM, Old Bill said:

I think I would have had a go with oxy-acetylene if I had that kit available. We have never gone that way but have stuck with propane over the years. Just now and again, oxy-acetylene would be nice to have! I did consider investing in oxy-MAPP gas equipment. Does anyone have any experience of it? What about a carbon-arc torch? Are they any good?

 

Steve  😀

Steve,

No workshop should be without oxy-acet in my opinion.  I had an account w/ BOC for many many years, being held ransom to their high rental prices, and "delivery" fee (even though I had to collect the bottles).  After several issues w/ BOC I transferred my loyalty to one of the rent-free bottle suppliers.  I have acetylene and oxygen and argoshield (for MIG) that way. 

For me, as a low volume user,  like yourselves, it makes perfect sense.  My yearly costs have dropped by around £350/year.   On the downside, the bottles do not have as much gas in, but that is not a concern for me.   When I dismantled the chassis of the old Leyland SQ2 that took me about 1.5 bottles of oxygen.  For dismantling/cutting I tend to use oxy/propane.

As a setup cost of £80/bottle deposit plus gas cost it has saved me money already (compared to BOC).    I am twelve months in using Hobbyweld, and I am happy to report that I am very pleased with them.   I would not go down the Mapp gas route, a waste of time, gas and money and frankly only good for model making (in my humble opinion).

Hope this helps

Dave

 

[dgrev]

Mammoth - your comments are spot on about getting gas in Oz. The yearly B__ bottle hire fees are exorbitant. It was costing me more in hire than gas consumption. In the end I handed back the bottles and walked away.

Scrunt. The privateer brand available to me in Broken Hill is $400 each to "buy" Oxy and Acetylene bottles. You then "swap" the bottles and pay the gas fee. The problem being you are then locked into that brand. If they do a B__ with their prices, you cannot swap the bottles with another brand. Or if the only shop that sells them shuts, no more gas and proud ownership of useless bottles.

To my knowledge Hobbyweld is not available here.

Of the regulars we have only BOC and Liquid Air (or whatever they call themselves now) - with a really weird looking blue trigger type valve on their bottles.

Drat!

[andypugh]

57 minutes ago, Cel said:

That way you apply the force directly to the stuck part.

That's a good point. At the moment the effect of the bearing taper is to squeeze the inner race down on to the shaft as the wheel is pulled. 

[Old Bill]

Well, we are still doing battle! Thank you for all of your various thoughts and comments. They are all much appreciated.

After giving it some more thought, we came to the conclusion that if we removed the cage and rollers, then the inner bearing would come off over this inner race. We therefore set to cutting the cage out with a cold chisel.

 

After cutting between the rollers, I managed to break the ends off and push the race back to allow the rollers to bunch at the bottom.

There was then enough room to draw the rollers one at a time.

We slid the wheel outwards only to realise that the inner bearing is trapped by a screw-in ring in the back of the wheel so we were stymied.

However, now we have some more space to work so I have measured up to make a puller that I can wangle in around the race. I have also cut a notch in the race with the Dremel so that we can get a punch on it to twist it. I would have gone closer to the axle but have run out of grinding bits!

Current thinking is to make up the puller and then get some heat into the race with either an arc welder or possibly an oxy-propane torch if I can borrow one. Hit the race inwards to get it moving and then insert puller and remove.

We shall see!

Steve   🙂

[David Herbert]

Can you get a chisel axially into the slot you have cut in the inner race and hit it hard enough to split the remaining web and allow the race to lift of the axle ?

David

[andypugh]

5 hours ago, David Herbert said:

Can you get a chisel axially into the slot you have cut in the inner race and hit it hard enough to split the remaining web and allow the race to lift of the axle ?

Another vote for this. It's a fairly standard way to remove inner races. 

[Motleyholt]

5 hours ago, andypugh said:

Another vote for this. It's a fairly standard way to remove inner races. 

Third vote manual chisel or air chisel. Would be surprised if it doesn't split. As a side note a good set of carbide burrs and a die grinder will make mincemeat of hard bearing races for this job. I've had some that have lasted years and still cutting well.

[edinmass]

Steve, I would now use a torch to heat the race red hot, and spray water on it to cool it down, Repeat two or three times, then heat it red and use an air chisel to rotate it and knock it loose..........you need to be careful not to slip with the air tool. 

[andypugh]

16 hours ago, edinmass said:

Steve, I would now use a torch to heat the race red hot, and spray water on it to cool it down,

I am reminded of a quote I hear Steve Summers use on YouTube when warming nuts with oxy-acetylene: "It can't be seized if it's liquid..."

[alixcompo]

I used to rent gas/bottles from BOC. As a low user it was extortionately expensive so I went to a competitor who was cheaper, just hugely expensive. Now I am with hobbyweld which is comparatively cheap though my local agent (60 miles away) sez that this is a main core of his business and by far the most profitable.

So having paid the £80 bottle deposit now everything just costs 70 quid. A refill a valve, a reel of wire and a repair to the control panel of my machine......

Net result.....   I am saving hundreds over the double invoice confusion with BOC where a year after closing my account and returning the cylinder I found I was still paying for something to this day I do not understand