scruffyHerrbert Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 Looks like I will need to remove the Bosch pump on a Perkins Phaser 110T ... the drive gear needs to come off before the pump can be removed and it's time to invest in a suitable puller tool/kit ... at a quick glance, this looks fairly comprehensive http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/sNew-Hydraulic-Bearing-Puller-and-Separator-Tool-25-pcs-Gear-Bearing-Remover-/331855790664?hash=item4d44258248:g:KOAAAOSw8vZXNv6V Wondered if anyone had any suggestions/recommendations based on experience of this or other kits? Cheers Also, on a side note, finally got round to commencing fitting a hydraulic Boughton winch, which has sat unused for a good 8-10yrs (most of those outside on the original vehicle) ... the drum release lever seems to have stuck - anyone had success freeing one without using the vehicle/winch itself to assist? And finally, drum looks to be fitted with 11-12mm cable but not a lot of it - anyone here sell it/have some spare/know of a good place to get some? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scruffyHerrbert Posted May 15, 2016 Author Share Posted May 15, 2016 Winch drum release lever took some shifting (heat at top bush didn't free it so dismantled ... heat at top & bottom bush and ages working it back and forth tapping with hammer, dropping graphited penetrating oil in and eventually movement increased & was able to extract pin and clean bushes) Have about 64ft of cable - anyone know what they were assembled with new? Looks like drum would comfortably take more, even allowing for uneven spooling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Farrant Posted May 15, 2016 Share Posted May 15, 2016 Have about 64ft of cable - anyone know what they were assembled with new? Looks like drum would comfortably take more, even allowing for uneven spooling. The size of winch rope will depend on the load rating of the winch. There would be a data plate of model number on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scruffyHerrbert Posted May 16, 2016 Author Share Posted May 16, 2016 As far as I can tell (with a little help from google), model number is VH8, with the "8" referring to an 8 tonne rating (which would equate with original fitment to a vehicle with a 7.5t GVW). The only tag present is attached to part of the hydraulic drive assembly, made by Char-Lynn, Eaton Corp. Hydraulics Division, USA. Is there a way of rotating photos on the forum uploader, as they were the right way up before I uploaded them? When I was attempting to measure the diameter of cable fitted (with digital calliper), was getting between 11-11.5mm - would that be a 12mm cable with a little stretch in it? (main frame mounting threads are imperial). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Degsy Posted May 16, 2016 Share Posted May 16, 2016 Wire rope with a 11mm diameter would normally be used on a winch with a capacity in the region of 4.3tonnes, an 8T capacity winch would require a 16mm rope. A 4.3 tonne winch would usually be fitted to a large 4x4 such as a RB44 or slide bed recovery truck whereas an 8T winch would be fitted to a medium heavy recovery truck. As your winch has been standing for a considerable time it's more likely the rope has spread slightly rather than stretched. Hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scruffyHerrbert Posted May 16, 2016 Author Share Posted May 16, 2016 (edited) Thanks for the input Degsy - increasing the thickness at some point may need to be considered, in which case I don't suppose the drum will accommodate a lot more than the 64ft currently on it and leave room for uneven winding. (Vehicle commonly weighs 4.5t and winch is for self-recovery, amongst other occasional uses). Are wire ropes sizes suitable for winching incremental by the mm (not really had to shop for it before) or do they tend to jump from 11/12mm to 16mm? Although I havn't had the opportunity to really get to know RB44's, if had to guess, would have said the 44's had the same VH8 unit? Hard to tell from a lot of net images, as bulk of unit usually hidden behind the bumper skin. This unit was fitted to a Boughton converted Renault Dodge 50-Series S75 (commonly used by the electricity/water supply companies in the 90s for more remote servicing). Whilst trying to find some more info online, found this ... http://www.downleycommon.org.uk/library/winchmanual.pdf ... although relating to what is probably the next model up, has some useful info. There is mention of periodic treatment of the rope as part of the maintenance - what do people favour as a rust inhibitor/lubricant for their (elements exposed) winch ropes? Edited May 16, 2016 by scruffyHerrbert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scruffyHerrbert Posted May 20, 2016 Author Share Posted May 20, 2016 Had another look at the drum and not sure the recess for securing the inner end of the rope will accommodate a significantly larger diameter wire (not sure if the diameter of the drum centre would suit tight coiling of 16mm wire either). Been doing some more digging and it seems wire rope is manufactured in mm increments up to 14mm diameter, then in 2mm increments up to 28mm (above that, increments vary) http://www.pdqwire.co.uk/dynamicdata/assetmanager/images/weight-breaking-load.pdf Google images suggest the winches were commonly fitted with a data plate (on main casing, left of drum) and mine is missing. Boughtons couldn't help in confirming pulling capacity but thought my interpretation of model number sounded plausible. Anyway, from info i'm finding online, it would appear that a 11mm diameter (with independent wire core) rope in good condition would have a minimum breaking load equivalent to the GVW so going up in size would build in some margin for wear & tear & reduced MBL. With galvanised rope, is it still advisable to treat it periodically? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Degsy Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 Have a look at the following arbtalk.co.uk/forum/trading-place/782-boughton-vh6-hydraulic-winch.html This gives the specs for a VH6 winch but should point you in the right direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scruffyHerrbert Posted May 21, 2016 Author Share Posted May 21, 2016 Some interesting info in that link - found various RB winch images uploaded at arbtalk this week (and some interesting threads there also) but not arrived at that particular page until now, cheers. Found an army equipment support publication dated Oct.'90 this evening (online), which includes winch data and confirms the RB44 was fitted with the VH8 unit, mentioning also a rope length (on 5th layer) of 53m/174ft, although rope diameter is not specified. Ultimately fitting some 13mm diameter rope might be a good compromise ... according to the VH6 info on arbtalk, the drum will accommodate (a maximum) 65m of 13mm diameter wire. Found this also http://www.downleycommon.org.uk/library/VHSeriesLeaflet.pdf The missing data from the horses mouth ... 11mm rope diameter (standard fitment) 75m rope length (recommended/95m max) Recommended oil flow (min/max) 20-55 litres/minute 3800kg line pull (bare drum), 1890kg line pull (full drum) at 110Bar It would appear from your link and this one, full 6000kg line-pull (VH6) and therefore 8000kg for the VH8, is achieved at 200bar (with a bare drum.) Getting there, slowly ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Degsy Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 (edited) Although I've had experience with hydraulics I don't claim any expert knowledge but I suspect that the quoted figure of an 8 tonne line pull at 200bar is more of a theoretical figure than an achievable one, I think 200 bar is a very high pressure in this application. Always remember that in vehicle recovery it is normally a rolling load which is obviously very different to a deadweight pull or lift. If the vehicle you are trying to recover is bogged then the judicious use of a shovel before pulling is the important thing. You can easily increase the pull by the use of one or more sheave blocks. Edited May 21, 2016 by Degsy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scruffyHerrbert Posted May 21, 2016 Author Share Posted May 21, 2016 I suspect you're right - probably find fluid leaking from somewhere well before 200bar (probably doing well to get to 110 ... will need to inspect PTO - am guessing it'll have a release valve designed to open at a given pressure located somewhere?). So the manufacturers line-pull figures (at 110bar, based on 80% overall efficiency) refer to moving a dead weight (in a horizontal plane)? As you say, the friction/resistance between the ground and object the winch is attached to will have a big impact (wondering how manufacturers set up test conditions). Have a sheave block - will see what it's rated at (no doubt a few accessories will be going on the shopping list in due course!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Degsy Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 I suspect you're right - probably find fluid leaking from somewhere well before 200bar (probably doing well to get to 110 ... will need to inspect PTO - am guessing it'll have a release valve designed to open at a given pressure located somewhere?). So the manufacturers line-pull figures (at 110bar, based on 80% overall efficiency) refer to moving a dead weight (in a horizontal plane)? As you say, the friction/resistance between the ground and object the winch is attached to will have a big impact (wondering how manufacturers set up test conditions). Have a sheave block - will see what it's rated at (no doubt a few accessories will be going on the shopping list in due course!) As I said previously I don't have expert knowledge, you will need to contact the manufacturer for answers to your questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Farrant Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 The Boughton winch originally fitted on the RB44 military vehicles had a maximum pull on bottom layer of 3.7 tonnes with the PRV (pressure relief valve) set at 54 bar. On no account was the pull to exceed 4.08 tonnes. Your biggest problem is holding the vehicle on a pull near that figure, also remember if you calculate the pull to be near maximum, then you use a 2:1 set up as you do not want to be having the PRV cut in when you are underway. I used to repair, test and calibrate winches on all Army vehicles and equipment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scruffyHerrbert Posted May 21, 2016 Author Share Posted May 21, 2016 Thanks Richard, interesting & useful to learn the '44 PRV setting of 54bar ... so in this application the winch got nowhere near the 110bar operation (but could still achieve a good bottom layer pull). Could fabricate a ground spade pivoting about an axis roughly in line with winch chassis mounting arms, which when not in use could be rotated up above winch in front of grill (got some work to do to get winch operational first). Some shots of the PTO attached ... Don't know if it's compatible with the RB44 transfer box yet (hope so) - removed from the S75 version, which has a different casing (without the big inspection cover in top). Guessing the PRV may be inside the outlet secured with 4 socket-head set-screws (to right of data plate in first photo). I've had to switch to running a '44 transfer box for now due to slack in high ratio chain in S75 box causing it to jump teeth. Did get in touch with Boughtons this week but they were unfortunately unable to supply me with any data (guess as the VH8 is at least 25yrs old and pre-internet, to be expected). Found some interesting posts in another (old) thread here which mentioned a guide to calculating pulls, based on ratio of vehicle weight for differing ground conditions: Road 1/25th Grass 1/7th Gravel 1/5th Soft sand 1/4th Shallow mud 1/3rd Bog 1/2 Plus a rule-of-thumb for gradient at 1/60th vehicle weight for every degree of slope (up to 45degrees, adding whole weight over 45). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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