question WW2 RAF vehicle markings.

[earlymb]

The B/91 is not a particular base but B= Bomber Command 91 = 91 group - group within Bomber Command, 91 Groups role was Operational training of Bomber crews.

The RAF Identification number is RAF 1234 etc often refered to as reg or census number.

TED

 

Thanks for the explanation, is there a list somewhere online with those groups? So Fighter Command vehicles would have 'F/xx'?

[RAFMT]

A listing of the groups can be found here: http://www.rafweb.org/Organsation/Grp_ind.htm

[earlymb]

A listing of the groups can be found here: http://www.rafweb.org/Organsation/Grp_ind.htm

 

Thanks for the link! :cheesy:

[Ian L]

The B/91 is not a particular base but B= Bomber Command 91 = 91 group - group within Bomber Command, 91 Groups role was Operational training of Bomber crews.

The RAF Identification number is RAF 1234 etc often refered to as reg or census number.

TED

 

Hi Ted (or anyone else) I have a mate coming round tomorrow to sign write the Humber & he needs to know the colour codes of the roundel if poss & the font for the RAF ????? as I guess it will be different to how a stencilled number would look.

I also need an RAF ????? number that a 1944 Humber might use.

thanks in advance. Ian L

[ted angus]

Ian, the original colours for the roundel were from the MAP/MoS range and were not numbered ; The best shot I can give you is for new numbers raised in the BS 381c spec which appeared as the MAP/MoS range wound down in the 1960s. BS 381c No 110 Roundel Blue; BS 381c 539 Currant Red; but as I say these are just my best shots; No font specified plain letters/numbers 5 inches high . As for an RAF ident number RAF 168444 served with a bomb disposal unit in Holland/ Germany. Hope this helps

TED

[RAFMT]

I'm going to have to disagree with Ted slightly, but I had access to some 1945 MoS colour samples to compare with later editions of BS381C.

Cherry Red is in fact almost spot on for the red used on roundels, however the closest match I could get to the blue was 106 Royal Blue. The "original roundel" blue was slightly lighter than Royal Blue but a lot darker than Oxford Blue which is in turn darker the Roundel Blue which is the colour used post 1947ish on aircraft.

[ted angus]

I'm going to have to disagree with Ted slightly, but I had access to some 1945 MoS colour samples to compare with later editions of BS381C.

Cherry Red is in fact almost spot on for the red used on roundels, however the closest match I could get to the blue was 106 Royal Blue. The "original roundel" blue was slightly lighter than Royal Blue but a lot darker than Oxford Blue which is in turn darker the Roundel Blue which is the colour used post 1947ish on aircraft.

 

Hi Mate I did say my best shot I will go with Cherry Red which is BS 381c No 538 ( and formerly known as PO red) But Not the blue- No 106 Royal Blue is the colour of Royal Navy trucks and it very very dark-- almost black with a hint of blue- When The MAP/MoS colours were absorbed into BS 381c, No 110 Roundel Blue was an addition so I still put my money on that ??

I have a roundel sticker somewhere that the Queen lent me but I cannot lay my hands on it at the moment - or else I could have compared it with my TRIMITE colour chip folder. I think the bottom line is The colours need to match a WW2 period MAP colour chip chart and I doubt anyone on the show scene will have one in his pocket to start a bun fight with Ian L !

regards TED

[simon king]

Were type numbers added to the nearside door of all RAF vehicles during 1943/1944 or was it simply those vehicles which were expected to cross over to the Continent following the invasion? The appropriate type number for a Heavy Utility is 2000 I think

[Ian L]

Were type numbers added to the nearside door of all RAF vehicles during 1943/1944 or was it simply those vehicles which were expected to cross over to the Continent following the invasion? The appropriate type number for a Heavy Utility is 2000 I think

 

Hi Simon I wish I had seen your post earlier, we got a Type number from a restored Humber box which was 123A but it looks like that might be wrong ?

[Ian L]

Hi Mate I did say my best shot I will go with Cherry Red which is BS 381c No 538 ( and formerly known as PO red) But Not the blue- No 106 Royal Blue is the colour of Royal Navy trucks and it very very dark-- almost black with a hint of blue- When The MAP/MoS colours were absorbed into BS 381c, No 110 Roundel Blue was an addition so I still put my money on that ??

I have a roundel sticker somewhere that the Queen lent me but I cannot lay my hands on it at the moment - or else I could have compared it with my TRIMITE colour chip folder. I think the bottom line is The colours need to match a WW2 period MAP colour chip chart and I doubt anyone on the show scene will have one in his pocket to start a bun fight with Ian L !

regards TED

 

The roundel.

[Ian L]

My mate Tomo doing the sign writing, I will post the finished job tomorrow.

[simon king]

Hi Simon I wish I had seen your post earlier, we got a Type number from a restored Humber box which was 123A but it looks like that might be wrong ?

 

Type Numbers in the 0 - 999 series were allocated for specialist signals vehicles - so I guess might have been correct for the vehicle seen.

Jeeps were Type 1900 by the way

Edited May 18, 2016 by simon king

[ted angus]

Were type numbers added to the nearside door of all RAF vehicles during 1943/1944 or was it simply those vehicles which were expected to cross over to the Continent following the invasion? The appropriate type number for a Heavy Utility is 2000 I think

type numbers were added to all holdings- whether all got them is another matter, it was a short lived requirement; IT should be on the FRONT passenger door; What function was an RVT 123A I cannot find it in any of the period documents ??

TED

Edited May 18, 2016 by ted angus

[Ian L]

type numbers were added to all holdings- whether all got them is another matter, it was a short lived requirement; IT should be on the FRONT passenger door; What function was an RVT 123A I cannot find it in any of the period documents ??

TED

 

Hi Ted we're properly completely wrong with the Type 123A but I was just copying it from another Humber box photo.

There was not enough room to get the roundel plus B/91 on the front R/H wing but we did find several photos of period & restored vehicles with it like we have done.

We put the RAF numbers on both doors as you mentioned that they did that late war ? and we found one photo like that.

I think we have done our best to represent a Humber Box used as a 'hack' on a Bomber airfield as there is no evidence either way.

Thanks for your help again, Regards Ian

 

I will post finished photos when it stops raining.

[RAFMT]

Ted, I took the colours from a 1945 set of colour chips, and I did say that the Insignia Blue was slightly lighter than Royal Blue.

Remember that the roundels on aircraft changed colour around the outbreak of war and then changed back again about 1947. The wartime colours were duller and darker than the peacetime ones. 110 Roundel Blue is the pre-war/post 1947 colour.

 

Then again I can't actually recall anything that said what shade the roundel on a vehicle should be, and the brighter colours would stand out against blue-grey better than the wartime aircraft roundels would.

[ted angus]

Hi Mate, you are right the colour specs, they don't seem to be laid down anywhere. I think the only thing we can do is assume they were the same as the roundel colour at the time.

On a different tack: I have a fair number of RVT numbers viz function but cannot find a function for RVT 123 and cannot find even a listing for RVT 123a- is there a full list ? must have another look on the RAFM website.

 

Ian , I think your HACK is a very fitting tribute to Bomber Command right or wrong its great, can't wait for a full set of pictures. I was stationed at Scampton when the ceremony was held for the amalgamation of Fighter & Bomber Commands into Strike, I was only a lowly SAC at the time but was lucky enough to meet Barnes Wallis, Leonard Cheshire and Mr Bader,! a day marred by the crash of a Lightning just after take-off from its home station to join the proceedings.

TED

[RAFMT]

I agree with Ted, Ian, it's a fantastic bit of kit, and a fitting tribute.

 

Ted, RVT 123A was assigned to a 15cwt fitted with one S.27 for single channel VHF D/F. It was only issued to "Y" Units

[uw167]

The census numbers or registrations are intriguing. Most RAF vehicles pre-war appear to have carried normal registrations in the Middlesex series. Probably the increase in numbers required the new RAFxxxx series. Tis numbering does not appear to have been in order of age. There are many batches of vehicles, probably numbered on delivery. However there also seems to have been some "backfilling". I have discussed the idea that numbers were issued to those already with Middlesex plates. Some vehicles post war still carried these registrations and the sale lot numbers refer to them. The Crossley FT at the museum had one. Could the presence of something already on the plate have meant that the new census number was put on the door?

[ted angus]

I agree with Ted, Ian, it's a fantastic bit of kit, and a fitting tribute.

 

Ted, RVT 123A was assigned to a 15cwt fitted with one S.27 for single channel VHF D/F. It was only issued to "Y" Units

 

Thanks Bryan that is another gap filled. So that would almost certainly been a Bedford MW .

regards TED

[ted angus]

The census numbers or registrations are intriguing. Most RAF vehicles pre-war appear to have carried normal registrations in the Middlesex series. Probably the increase in numbers required the new RAFxxxx series. Tis numbering does not appear to have been in order of age. There are many batches of vehicles, probably numbered on delivery. However there also seems to have been some "backfilling". I have discussed the idea that numbers were issued to those already with Middlesex plates. Some vehicles post war still carried these registrations and the sale lot numbers refer to them. The Crossley FT at the museum had one. Could the presence of something already on the plate have meant that the new census number was put on the door?

Yes within the UK a local authority reg was carried, the vast majority being Middlesex, I believe via RAF Uxbridge hence Middlesex. If you look at pre 1940 pictures of British army vehicles they also carried both a civilian again Middlesex I believe and a Military number. I have seen it quoted that april 1941 was when the RAFxxxx system started but our RAF assets that went to France must have had an ID of some sort and there appears to be 1940 pictures showing a RAFxxx Identification number;

I have never seen an AMO on the subject- possibly RAFMT might know more ??

I have pictures of Balloon Sqn vehicles covering Antwerp 44/45 that were still on civvy plates indeed I don't think I have seen any Fordson Sussex with RAFxxx ident numbers ??

TED

[RAFMT]

I haven't yet figured out when the RAFxxx reg system was introduced.

For those interested I've scanned the relevant pages from a 1946 document dealing with radio equipment. It should give most of the RVT numbers still in use up to then. This is the note on the inside of the front cover

 

 

The pages dealing with vehicles should be found in the .pdf here:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tsktp9df1bbntla/RVT%20Listing%201946.pdf?dl=0

It's a sizable file.

[ted angus]

Wow what a document that is !! many thanks

TTFN TED

[simon king]

Interesting to see the use of jeeps and 10cwt GS trailers loaded with radio gear and Onan gennys by Forward Air Controllers as Types 133/134 et seq

[Ian L]

I agree with Ted, Ian, it's a fantastic bit of kit, and a fitting tribute.

 

Ted, RVT 123A was assigned to a 15cwt fitted with one S.27 for single channel VHF D/F. It was only issued to "Y" Units

 

This was the photo I copied from the internet.

[ted angus]

Thanks for sharing the pic; So many people put the RAF on the doors, but they were done away with when the roundel was introduced; once camo came in the RAF ( which should be screwed on ali letters) was painted over. Certainly once the type numbers came in the RAF should have been long gone.

mind many owners of preserved vehicles tend to slap on lots of markings.

TED