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After the war a lot of RAF land was used for storage of returned armoured vehicles and trucks so the fact that one of the co-ordinates is at Waterbeach Airfield is not in itself a problem. Whether there is anything there is another question....

David

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13 hours ago, andy brown said:

Hi everybody

It would appear that every time I appear a great many feathers get ruffled more because of a mis -understanding or suspicion that I withhold information ,this came about from a lack of understanding ie.regarding that in the outset all that I had was gleened from a meeting seventy years ago that I witnessed in our garden one of a a number between the military and my father also military ,so why the garden they all worked for the same firm (war department ) this could have been done in situ but no a Saturday in our garden so this one could assume wasn't kosher ,dodgy old lot....obviously to limit the possibility of a leak the less people involved the better. Even though I came across the tank plates which in the moment did not click that there was a connection only two years later did the penny drop ..I was asked why no pics of plates ,simply because they were next to worthless and few people including me didn't carry a camera why take pics of everything ? Most question that came at me were from a logical base other just showed that they hadn't absorbed the fact that for seventy years this never happened and I didn't have all the answers .

So here is something you can get your teeth into ,this is not the end of the story probably about a quarter of it .

52°16'33"N.                I            52°16'48"N

0°16'01"E.                   I             0°11'22"E 

Thanks open to questions.....

Sorry my mistake..0°16"01'E should be 

0°11"01'E ............less haste more speed.

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3 hours ago, David Herbert said:

After the war a lot of RAF land was used for storage of returned armoured vehicles and trucks so the fact that one of the co-ordinates is at Waterbeach Airfield is not in itself a problem. Whether there is anything there is another question....

David

Well, as far as Waterbeach is concerned, it is a problem. At the end of the war Waterbeach was a busy operational airfield in Bomber Command, passing to Transport Command in September 1945. The squadrons were busy all through the Berlin Airlift then Fighter Command took it over in 1950. During the Korean War thee were even some USAF aircraft stationed there for a time. Fighter Command kept it busy until 1963. It was used thereafter by the Varsities from 5FTS at RAF Oakington who continued to use the airfield even after the arrival of the Royal Engineers. So I don't see any point in giving this particular hare any sort of exercise at all.

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Your first post - you state you purchased quite a large quantity of tank identity plates at a West London scrapyard , further that you had them auctioned by Sotherby's in 2002.    Now -  IMHO the passing of 19 years is not so great for a auction house of renown, they will have a library of catalogues with a history well in excess of 20 years,  they should also have your name, address / account No.     For starters - without proof of identity and good reason , they will not entertain such a search.  

                     Regarding getting info. out of a auction house - I say this with good reason - they maintain there customer's confidentiality like a doctor (probably more so for a seller than a buyer).

                     I say the above with experience and good reason - several years ago , a person (not self) purchased a deed box of ephemera from a auction house ,  I then purchased a important  WW2 Mi5 document off this dealer. I had known of the existence of this document because a COPY of it appears in a book (this copy is displayed in a museum).  I had a hunch this museum copy was taken off the COPY in my possession.   The COPY I have being one of four/five copies produced by Mi5 and each was marked for traceability of handling from the Registry etc.  I believe my COPY is the authentic and was  "weeded"  by Maurice Oldfield and he kept it safe for  'historical' purpose.  I believe the paper of the COPY I have if ever had the paper forensic tested etc. then it would be confirmed Mi5 genuine.

                              I actually contacted the auction house to see if they would reveal the seller of the papers , this would enable me to question this person and see if a link could be established.  However - I was blown-out.

 

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1 hour ago, 10FM68 said:

 

Well, as far as Waterbeach is concerned, it is a problem. At the end of the war Waterbeach was a busy operational airfield in Bomber Command, passing to Transport Command in September 1945. The squadrons were busy all through the Berlin Airlift then Fighter Command took it over in 1950. During the Korean War thee were even some USAF aircraft stationed there for a time. Fighter Command kept it busy until 1963. It was used thereafter by the Varsities from 5FTS at RAF Oakington who continued to use the airfield even after the arrival of the Royal Engineers. So I don't see any point in giving this particular hare any sort of exercise at all.

The airfield was closed for upgrades early 1950 to mid 1950 ..this is when the aprons I have identified were laid along with the widening of both ends of the operational runway all to accommodate the anticipated arrival of b 29s as were a number of other airfields..

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1 hour ago, ruxy said:

Your first post - you state you purchased quite a large quantity of tank identity plates at a West London scrapyard , further that you had them auctioned by Sotherby's in 2002.    Now -  IMHO the passing of 19 years is not so great for a auction house of renown, they will have a library of catalogues with a history well in excess of 20 years,  they should also have your name, address / account No.     For starters - without proof of identity and good reason , they will not entertain such a search.  

                     Regarding getting info. out of a auction house - I say this with good reason - they maintain there customer's confidentiality like a doctor (probably more so for a seller than a buyer).

                     I say the above with experience and good reason - several years ago , a person (not self) purchased a deed box of ephemera from a auction house ,  I then purchased a important  WW2 Mi5 document off this dealer. I had known of the existence of this document because a COPY of it appears in a book (this copy is displayed in a museum).  I had a hunch this museum copy was taken off the COPY in my possession.   The COPY I have being one of four/five copies produced by Mi5 and each was marked for traceability of handling from the Registry etc.  I believe my COPY is the authentic and was  "weeded"  by Maurice Oldfield and he kept it safe for  'historical' purpose.  I believe the paper of the COPY I have if ever had the paper forensic tested etc. then it would be confirmed Mi5 genuine.

                              I actually contacted the auction house to see if they would reveal the seller of the papers , this would enable me to question this person and see if a link could be established.  However - I was blown-out.

 

Been there done that ..I contacted Sotheby's around 2010 looking for a copy of my reciept and was told they were only legally obliged to keep them for six years ..so I to was blown out ...but managed to track down the chap who worked at the time as arms and armour expert Sotheby's billingshurst found him part time at Washington Sussex he remembered the sale of plates and sent me a written confirmation letter to confirm his documenting the plates prior to.the sale along with a copy of the relevant catalouge..I still have his letter ....

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20 minutes ago, andy brown said:

The airfield was closed for upgrades early 1950 to mid 1950 ..this is when the aprons I have identified were laid along with the widening of both ends of the operational runway all to accommodate the anticipated arrival of b 29s as were a number of other airfields..

pardon my ignorance, but wasn't the B29 obsolete my the mid 1950's?

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21 minutes ago, andy brown said:

The airfield was closed for upgrades early 1950 to mid 1950 ..this is when the aprons I have identified were laid along with the widening of both ends of the operational runway all to accommodate the anticipated arrival of b 29s as were a number of other airfields..

OK.  First then: are you telling us, categorically, that your tanks are buried under the apron at RAF Waterbeach in 1950?

As far as I am aware, the aprons were originally laid during wartime, so while they may well have been upgraded, in the few months between Transport Command leaving and Fighter Command coming in, it remains highly unlikely that there would be sufficient space, secrecy and willingness to bury loads of tanks there at that time.  I cannot confirm that the RAF were not considering upgrading for B29s, but I'm not sure why they would have chosen an airfield they had just allocated to Fighter Command and which would host USAF F84s for training when there were plenty of other airfields belonging to Bomber Command to upgrade.  As for burying stuff, why choose an active RAF air station when, at this time, the choice of alternative, abandoned military property was immense.  It just doesn't add up.

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13 minutes ago, andy brown said:

Been there done that ..I contacted Sotheby's around 2010 looking for a copy of my reciept and was told they were only legally obliged to keep them for six years ..so I to was blown out ...but managed to track down the chap who worked at the time as arms and armour expert Sotheby's billingshurst found him part time at Washington Sussex he remembered the sale of plates and sent me a written confirmation letter to confirm his documenting the plates prior to.the sale along with a copy of the relevant catalouge..I still have his letter ....

Can you show a photograph of the catalogue page  HERE   ?   Also if you feel OK about it the correspondence received  ?

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4 minutes ago, Ashcollection said:

pardon my ignorance, but wasn't the B29 obsolete my the mid 1950's?

 

5 minutes ago, Ashcollection said:

pardon my ignorance, but wasn't the B29 obsolete my the mid 1950's?

Not going to split hairs ,I was only ten at the time so it would have been what ever supercied it .perhaps the flying wing which I remember ...

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2 hours ago, ruxy said:

  I then purchased a important  WW2 Mi5 document off this dealer. I had known of the existence of this document because a COPY of it appears in a book (this copy is displayed in a museum).  I had a hunch this museum copy was taken off the COPY in my possession.   The COPY I have being one of four/five copies produced by Mi5 and each was marked for traceability of handling from the Registry etc.  I believe my COPY is the authentic and was  "weeded"  by Maurice Oldfield and he kept it safe for  'historical' purpose.  I believe the paper of the COPY I have if ever had the paper forensic tested etc. then it would be confirmed Mi5 genuine.

 

 

Blimey Tony, you're getting as bad as Andy!🙂

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4 minutes ago, 10FM68 said:

OK.  First then: are you telling us, categorically, that your tanks are buried under the apron at RAF Waterbeach in 1950?

As far as I am aware, the aprons were originally laid during wartime, so while they may well have been upgraded, in the few months between Transport Command leaving and Fighter Command coming in, it remains highly unlikely that there would be sufficient space, secrecy and willingness to bury loads of tanks there at that time.  I cannot confirm that the RAF were not considering upgrading for B29s, but I'm not sure why they would have chosen an airfield they had just allocated to Fighter Command and which would host USAF F84s for training when there were plenty of other airfields belonging to Bomber Command to upgrade.  As for burying stuff, why choose an active RAF air station when, at this time, the choice of alternative, abandoned military property was immense.  It just doesn't add up.

When I get time I will answer this suffice to say it took me five six years to find in the archives pics of the airfield at the time ...

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1 minute ago, andy brown said:

When I get time I will answer this suffice to say it took me five six years to find in the archives pics of the airfield at the time ...

Well, it doesn't take time.  Are you saying the tanks are at Waterbeach or not?  Simple yes, or no I'd have thought.

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1 hour ago, 10FM68 said:

Blimey Tony, you're getting as bad as Andy!🙂

I do have form / notoriety , according to Mark Barnes (War History online).  I ghost-write /part write under a nom-de-plume (this particular book -if you searched you would find my name  ISTR as a "contributor"..  MB did NOT get a complementary for the following book , and I very much doubt if he will get a free-bee for the book that should have been published June/July gone , however it was delayed due to inclusion of new material ,  I don't always agree with everything deduced by the main author , especially in a far earlier book going back 10+ years , two weeks ago I was able to give him evidence that may re-write history - so with luck that will create even more delay on the new book, that is if this contentious matter is re-evaluated..

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Andy -  why did you not drip-feed these 40 qty. tank identity plates as single items on Ebay  ?   As desk paperweights - you would have raised more £ ,   you would not have got top $ off Sotherby's.

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24 minutes ago, ruxy said:

Andy -  why did you not drip-feed these 40 qty. tank identity plates as single items on Ebay  ?   As desk paperweights - you would have raised more £ ,   you would not have got top $ off Sotherby's.

Didn't even have a computer till 2007 ...

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39 minutes ago, ruxy said:

I do have form / notoriety , according to Mark Barnes (War History online).  I ghost-write /part write under a nom-de-plume (this particular book -if you searched you would find my name  ISTR as a "contributor"..  MB did NOT get a complementary for the following book , and I very much doubt if he will get a free-bee for the book that should have been published June/July gone , however it was delayed due to inclusion of new material ,  I don't always agree with everything deduced by the main author , especially in a far earlier book going back 10+ years , two weeks ago I was able to give him evidence that may re-write history - so with luck that will create even more delay on the new book, that is if this contentious matter is re-evaluated..

But Maurice Oldfield didn't work for The Security Service, MI5, he was in an entirely separate organisation altogether.

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1 hour ago, 10FM68 said:

But Maurice Oldfield didn't work for The Security Service, MI5, he was in an entirely separate organisation altogether.

True ,  Sir Maurice Oldfield was for a period  Head of Mi6

During WW2 Mi5 & Mi6 were supposed to be joined at the limb.   As I said earlier  (I'm not prepared to swot up)   4 or 5 copies were made by Mi5 of this particular document and most certainly Mi6 would have received one of these copies - the COPY I have - I believe is the one supplied to Mi6. 

When Maurice was 'Head' he was in the best position of anybody for access to files, and he did because he tried to get the answer where there had been much speculation.    Maurice , for quite a few years received the blame for a stolen Mi6 file (that was seen by a 'few' in Holland).  This file was later sold for top$ ,  it did not address what I was interested in - the real conundrum,  I was aware the "photo-copy" was in a museum , and I think the book possibly accused Maurice , but there are other sources that lay the blame.

I am certain the museum photo-copy is a copy of my COPY.

This museum has changed location ,  I have never been - IIRC it was in a polis shop but now in a proper prison.

I can only operate by keeping a 'low-profile'  ,  the only clue I will give you -  get the Book   ,  a weighty tome as oiled bible paper ,,

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Crime-Through-Time-Black-Museum/dp/1902578171

=========

Not that I had anything to do with the Crime through Time , other than I visited the printers works on Tyneside.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Joris actually declined to review the book I wrote chapters & handed it on  LoL

 

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1 hour ago, andy brown said:

Didn't even have a computer till 2007 ...

Well - I don't rate your chances of getting accepted % good.  I think it will run , presently I am too busy sorting aggregate for a large batch of concrete, possibly I will give my opinion of the RAF base story later.

                                One of the problems is you can be waylaid by people who believe they are competent in their/your  particular subject , propaganda can sway you for several years of wasted time - you remain polite ,then you make a return and sift out something fresh.

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3 minutes ago, ruxy said:

Well - I don't rate your chances of getting accepted % good.  I think it will run , presently I am too busy sorting aggregate for a large batch of concrete, possibly I will give my opinion of the RAF base story later.

                                One of the problems is you can be waylaid by people who believe they are competent in their/your  particular subject , propaganda can sway you for several years of wasted time - you remain polite ,then you make a return and sift out something fresh.

When I arrived here 2016 I put forward a supposition ,someone out there....I had no idea if someone on the forum knew or not, only did it in case someone had or did know something in which case would either made me drop the hours in archives or if they knew it to be dead in the water and could prove it drop the whole thing but silence and a barrage of questions......

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15 minutes ago, ruxy said:

Well - I don't rate your chances of getting accepted % good.  I think it will run , presently I am too busy sorting aggregate for a large batch of concrete, possibly I will give my opinion of the RAF base story later.

                                One of the problems is you can be waylaid by people who believe they are competent in their/your  particular subject , propaganda can sway you for several years of wasted time - you remain polite ,then you make a return and sift out something fresh.

Hi ....am I supposed to be privy to these MI5 come MI6 conversations..if so you've lost me.... 

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51 minutes ago, ruxy said:

True ,  Sir Maurice Oldfield was for a period  Head of Mi6

During WW2 Mi5 & Mi6 were supposed to be joined at the limb.   As I said earlier  (I'm not prepared to swot up)   4 or 5 copies were made by Mi5 of this particular document and most certainly Mi6 would have received one of these copies - the COPY I have - I believe is the one supplied to Mi6. 

When Maurice was 'Head' he was in the best position of anybody for access to files, and he did because he tried to get the answer where there had been much speculation.    Maurice , for quite a few years received the blame for a stolen Mi6 file (that was seen by a 'few' in Holland).  This file was later sold for top$ ,  it did not address what I was interested in - the real conundrum,  I was aware the "photo-copy" was in a museum , and I think the book possibly accused Maurice , but there are other sources that lay the blame.

I am certain the museum photo-copy is a copy of my COPY.

This museum has changed location ,  I have never been - IIRC it was in a polis shop but now in a proper prison.

I can only operate by keeping a 'low-profile'  ,  the only clue I will give you -  get the Book   ,  a weighty tome as oiled bible paper ,,

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Crime-Through-Time-Black-Museum/dp/1902578171

=========

Not that I had anything to do with the Crime through Time , other than I visited the printers works on Tyneside.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Joris actually declined to review the book I wrote chapters & handed it on  LoL

 

All good stuff.  Doing research and analysis can be great fun, but frustrating unless you have the necessary access.  I can't say I have an interest in crime and horror, though - not a book for me, I'm afraid.  But, regarding your copy - usually with highly classified papers which were on limited distribution there would be a list on the inside cover stating precisely who was to receive each and the pages would all have "Copy No ... of ..." with repro copies having similar legends, "Repro copy ... of ..."  That might help.  Dating pre or post 1944 is easy also as prior to 1944 British "top secret" documents were "Most Secret"; "Top Secret" only came in when the US became the major partner and brought that classification with them - apparently to Churchill's chagrin - he preferred the correct use of English!  Anyway, too much of this and Andy will wonder what we're on about.

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Didn't work like that with the security services (Military in name) ,    Mi5 was owned by the Home Office & Mi6 by the Foreign Office.   At the start Mi5 had hardly had any organization or men/women , then most of their registry was lost/damaged in the Scrubbs fire caused by the Luftwaffe.

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