question Unusual Land Rover radio setup

[soleil]

Hi,

 

My Land Rover 90 has the following radio parts fitted: TUAAM box + transformer (VHF) on wing, second antenna (HF) on side mount (not usual mast), 14V radio charger, distribution box(? - on right of top pic), telescopic mast mounted horizontally above tailgate, couple of cable boxes & a jerry can holder between the front seats, seat in back tub on driver's side.

 

A yellow sheathed cable runs from the battery to what I think is the distribution box, another from there to the charger and from there to between the front seats (cable tie wrapped).

 

The Land Rover is a 90 from mid-late 1980's; suspect demob early 90's. (Am awaiting details from DVLC as there are question marks over the VIN.) The vehicle has a V8 engine (12V), Superwinch X6 winch (also believe 12V), front & rear single GPMG mounts and assorted jerry can storage so it is not your normal FFR.

 

Any idea what radio(s) would have been used / any other parts missing? I'm guessing Clansman PRC 319 for a start...

 

(I haven't served and know very little about radios, so please treat me like the idiot that I am;)

 

Thanks

 

 

 

[fv1609]

Do you have the ERM or Asset Code? This should help define its role.

[soleil]

Sorry I don't know what an ERM or Asset Code is, let alone what the values for them are.

 

The VIN on the seat box is missing. The VIN location on the chassis has a plate welded over it - how convenient, especially since that was done a long time ago and even now the chassis does not look that bad. According to Geoff at FMW the serial number from the brake box VIN is too late for a prototype military Land Rover and too early for a production Ninety.

 

The VIN is SALLDVAC7AA233767 from which I get: Europe, UK, Land Rover, 90/110, 92.3", "Truck Cab, Soft Top or Hard Top (Utility body)", 4 cyl diesel, RHD 5 speed, 1983-4, Solihull, serial No. 233797

 

The date first registered is April 1985 whereas I believe military vehicles are usually first registered when they leave the MOD, not soon after they are manufactured. I am in the process of obtaining details of the previous owners from the DVLC.

 

The above is making it hard for me to trace the military vehicle registration, let alone further details.

 

Whilst the vehicle does have some civvie features - caravan socket at back, speakers in dash, white painted wheels underneath - it also has military ones - no gearbox crossmember (so removed), 24v battery dash warning light, military lights - besides the goodies which are easy to bolt on.

 

In summary, my best guess is civilian spec RAF 90 nicked by the SAS to make a Dinky during the first Gulf War, as per this post, and then disposed of shortly after:

 

http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?25608-Recce-90&

 

 

I am going to do a separate post on the vehicle but I was letting Bob Morrison investigate first.

[g0ozs]

I assume the vehicle is GS rather than FFR (12V rather than 24V system) - I'm not aware of an official vehicle installation for the 319 - normally a GS landrover with a 14V DCCU charger as pictured would have a 351/2 VHF connected to the TUAAM via an Initiate box and a 320 HF

 

Do you have a picture of the non standard HF side mast or any residual mounting hardware in the back of the vehicle ? There were various non standard sets around in the 90s for specific purposes (certainly Harris Falcon and MEL PRC2000 have appeared via the usual surplus outlets) and any residual mounting hardware or rust may give a clue.

 

Regards

 

Iain

[fv1609]

ERM = Equipment Registration Mark, which in this case is the military registration

Asset Code is a management code for defining the vehicle type exactly

 

If Geoff is on the case you are in very expert hands.

[g0ozs]

Another odd thing is that the telescopic mast across the back is rusty - it looks like the old 27 foot larkspur mast which was plated steel (and a menace to fingers when taking down) - Clansman VHF antennas only fitted the lighter, safer and stronger RACAL aluminum masts. The Larkspur masts were however quite common as surplus in the 1980s.

 

If original this would tend to date the radio fit in the late 1970s when the Larkspur to Clansman transition was still incomplete - it was rapidly completed after the Falklands campaign in 1982. Also worth noting that while the main Clansman range (certainly 351/352, 14V charger and 320) were around in the late 1970s the 319 wasn't around until 1985 at the earliest.

 

Regards

 

Iain

[soleil]

I assume the vehicle is GS rather than FFR (12V rather than 24V system) - I'm not aware of an official vehicle installation for the 319 - normally a GS landrover with a 14V DCCU charger as pictured would have a 351/2 VHF connected to the TUAAM via an Initiate box and a 320 HF

 

Do you have a picture of the non standard HF side mast or any residual mounting hardware in the back of the vehicle ? There were various non standard sets around in the 90s for specific purposes (certainly Harris Falcon and MEL PRC2000 have appeared via the usual surplus outlets) and any residual mounting hardware or rust may give a clue.

 

Regards

 

Iain

 

I have a photo of the side aerial at home and will try to remember to add it: basically a Clansman aerial base on a fancy right angle bracket which is level with the tub side, instead of the normal upright pole, presumably so the rear GPMG is not fouled. (It is thinking like this which leads me to believe the vehicle is genuine rather than a civvie bodge, though I may be proved wrong.)

 

The back tub is ply lined with various holes on the bulkhead and floor, the dexion racking has a canvas clansman antenna pouch attached using metal clips, there is a P-clip on the wheel arch a few inches to the right of the tub seat. Otherwise I can see no other hardware though these were found with the vehicle:

 

http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?52338-Unidentified-parts

 

I am not sure if the telescopic mast can be used horizontally in extremis or whether it would have to be unbolted.

[fv1609]

A few things make me suspicious.

 

1. As seems to be the case it is 1/3 black & 2/3 green, but the black was required to be over corners to help blur them out. Here we have tiger stripes not covering the corners.

 

2. Two layers of IRR paint were required to get the proper IRR effect. It looks as if perhaps there is only one layer where it has chipped revealing yellow underneath.

 

3. The Union Flag decal has faded terribly I have never seen an original 3M decal fade quite like that. So it suggests it is perhaps a reproduction item.

 

4. At the rear the Union Flag decal should be on the other side. This may not be a valid criticism as today about a quarter of in service vehicles have one of the decals in the wrong place in contradiction to the Road Transport Regulations.

[g0ozs]

Hi

 

The mast would only be used vertical - they are easily damaged if extended horizontally without support and bent (I did that and wrote one off back in the '90s). I expect it was carried for use when at a fixed location to get wire antennas for HF off the ground in places with no convenient trees. Vehicle mounted HF antennas aren't nearly as efficient as the right length of wire.

 

In pre-319 days patrols would have used either the Clansman UK/PRC-320 or Larkspur A14 ( http://www.wftw.nl/a14t.jpg ) with morse code if safe (from enemy detection) to do so or the Larkspur A16 (later transposed to the Clansman range as UK/PRC-316 http://www.wftw.nl/a16t.jpg ) with an American AN/GRA-71 high-speed morse tape sender for secure communication.

 

The A14 was mounted on the wheel arch with four holes (at least in series rovers) but the antenna mount differs from your description see: http://www.vmarsmanuals.co.uk/archive/548_A14_Clip-in_kit.pdf

 

The A16 was never a vehicle set (and a much lighter manpack than the 319) but had a limited number of channels and low power so needed large wire antennas. See: http://www.vmarsmanuals.co.uk/archive/889_PRC-316_EMER_F202_pt1.pdf

 

Another set found in vehicles of that era was the Larkspur A43R UHF ground to air set (which I believe was still current for several years after the rest of Larkspur until the Clansman RT344 arrived). The usual clue to an A43R installation is an insulated holder, often between the front seats, because the A43R was a positive earth design with a "live" case when used in a modern negative earth vehicle! See: http://www.vmarsmanuals.co.uk/archive/2981_EMER_F532pt1_SR-A43RMk2_Technical_Description.pdf and http://www.vmarsmanuals.co.uk/archive/2980_EMER_F530_SR-A43RMk2_Data_Summary.pdf - I wonder if the apparent jerrycan holder between the seats is really for the A43R?

 

Regards

 

Iain

[soleil]

Another odd thing is that the telescopic mast across the back is rusty - it looks like the old 27 foot larkspur mast which was plated steel (and a menace to fingers when taking down) - Clansman VHF antennas only fitted the lighter, safer and stronger RACAL aluminum masts. The Larkspur masts were however quite common as surplus in the 1980s.

 

If original this would tend to date the radio fit in the late 1970s when the Larkspur to Clansman transition was still incomplete - it was rapidly completed after the Falklands campaign in 1982. Also worth noting that while the main Clansman range (certainly 351/352, 14V charger and 320) were around in the late 1970s the 319 wasn't around until 1985 at the earliest.

 

Regards

 

Iain

 

 

Thanks.

 

A photo I have stored on my camera does look like this:

 

http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?8090-radio-mast

 

I will check the number stampings when I see it next.

 

Being a Land Rover 90 the vehicle cannot be earlier than 1984 although one can obviously fit old kit to a later vehicle (as I suspect happened with the GPMG mounts).

 

It has crossed my mind that it was used as a glorious scaffold pole for slinging bergans but then why retain the end caps?...

[soleil]

A few things make me suspicious.

 

1. As seems to be the case it is 1/3 black & 2/3 green, but the black was required to be over corners to help blur them out. Here we have tiger stripes not covering the corners.

 

2. Two layers of IRR paint were required to get the proper IRR effect. It looks as if perhaps there is only one layer where it has chipped revealing yellow underneath.

 

3. The Union Flag decal has faded terribly I have never seen an original 3M decal fade quite like that. So it suggests it is perhaps a reproduction item.

 

4. At the rear the Union Flag decal should be on the other side. This may not be a valid criticism as today about a quarter of in service vehicles have one of the decals in the wrong place in contradiction to the Road Transport Regulations.

 

 

The vehicle has been left outside for a couple of years, hence fading?

 

In some places (tailgate, front dash - not visible in photos below) there is a coat underneath which is more orange, think rich tea biscuit, whereas the top coat showing is more yellow. (There are some unusual desert shades in Bob Morrison's book British Land Rovers In The Gulf.) The bright yellow looks like Airfield Yellow to me.

 

If this vehicle was a quick lash-up in the middle of the Gulf War where we had aerial superiority would IRR have been a concern? Honestly don't know; I'm only banging out ideas. I didn't pay a lot for the vehicle, it was not sold as SAS, so I don't have a lot to lose. If it is not I am happier replacing parts rather than refurbishing them, which will make restoration cheaper.

 

I enclose more pics so you can see the total camo scheme: there is grey paint on the rear corner below the number plate but it is not clear in the rear shot.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The vehicle is stored near Ashford, Kent, near the War & Peace showground. (It doesn't have an MOT and won't be getting one anytime soon so it won't be there.) Quite happy to show visitors as I want to get to the bottom of it:)

[soleil]

ERM = Equipment Registration Mark, which in this case is the military registration

Asset Code is a management code for defining the vehicle type exactly

 

If Geoff is on the case you are in very expert hands.

 

To be honest I got slightly confused with Geoff.

 

His last reply was "The vehicle has been rebuilt after service as I am convinced the chassis is civil. In any case the military would never bother fitting an 88 chassis to a 109 – too much like hard work. Furthermore at the date your Land Rover was in service there was no ‘White Fleet’ and all Land Rovers (including civil types) were delivered green! White Fleet came later in 2001. Yours dates to 1971 to 1985."

 

As there is no gearbox crossmember (only a holed flange running along the outside each chassis rail) I am not sure it is a civil chassis. I thought civvie chassis had a fixed crossmember and military vehicles had a removeable gearbox crossmember.

It is a 90, as in not a Series 88" or 109", and have never made any mention of SWB/LWB swaps or Series vehicles.

In my ignorance I referred to "white fleet" vehicles (which I now believe refers to lease contract) rather than civilian spec vehicles used by the military when I wrote to him -

 

"With the white wheels, non-pointy hubs on the back axle, base coat of green paint and holes for a hardtop door it matches the 'white fleet' RAF 90 hard top photographed in Bob Morrison's "Combat Land Rovers Portfolio No. 1" page 98 top plate (except for the tdi engine)"

 

Not sure where the date range starting 1971 comes from as it is a 90 and therefore 1984+. (Brakes, dash, suspension etc are all 90.)

 

 

Given his efforts before in tracing the military reg plate I did not like to try to resolve these confusions.

[fv1609]

If this vehicle was a quick lash-up in the middle of the Gulf War where we had aerial superiority would IRR have been a concern?

I can't see that they would want to paint it green/black to mimic the foliage of NE Europe in the Gulf?

 

PS I am assuming the base colour is faded NATO Green?

Edited January 15, 2016 by fv1609
PS

[ruxy]

SALLDVAC7AA is good for a TUL

 

233767 ,, IMHO about correct for stated age

 

It could on VIN - be Ex-MOD , ISTR the SAS did have some 90" sourced from RAF - that would account for Yellow.

 

------

 

If a Walt , then a PO went to a fair bit of trouble sourcing the correct winch/bumper.

 

======

 

Need a bit more time to peruse photographs, may be good idea to post up even more photographs of details.

 

Some items at first blush do appear Walty , on re-consideration - undecided..

[soleil]

SALLDVAC7AA is good for a TUL

 

233767 ,, IMHO about correct for stated age

 

It could on VIN - be Ex-MOD , ISTR the SAS did have some 90" sourced from RAF - that would account for Yellow.

 

------

 

If a Walt , then a PO went to a fair bit of trouble sourcing the correct winch/bumper.

 

======

 

Need a bit more time to peruse photographs, may be good idea to post up even more photographs of details.

 

Some items at first blush do appear Walty , on re-consideration - undecided..

 

 

And the winch bumper does appear to be reinforced inside!

 

I'll do a separate thread on the vehicle when I get home or at the weekend as I have a full spec list along with my list of queries and reasoning on a PC there. Pretty much every time I look at it I notice something odd or missing. See how many photos I can squash in.

 

I am curious who really knows and how they know about one or more 90's coming from the RAF and if they know what the base vehicle was? Presumably some in the REME fitted it out... More than happy for PMs if some prefer to remain anonymous.

 

I know what you mean about undecided: I have switched back and forth. It is truly an enigma wrapped up inside of a mystery holding a puzzle.

[soleil]

I can't see that they would want to paint it green/black to mimic the foliage of NE Europe in the Gulf?

 

PS I am assuming the base colour is faded NATO Green?

 

Re. colours:

 

Have a gander at this if you have access to the book:

 

"With the white wheels, non-pointy hubs on the back axle, base coat of green paint and holes for a hardtop door it matches the 'white fleet' RAF 90 hard top photographed in Bob Morrison's "Combat Land Rovers Portfolio No. 1" page 98 top plate (except for the tdi engine)"

 

The base coat looks dark green but not OD, more like 2/3 way down here:

 

http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?52086-Land-Rover-V8-110-military-in-service-UK-MOD/page2&highlight=v8+land+rover

 

 

Some, though not all, of the paint colours are shown here (missing the more orangey sand colour and the blue, latter visible by passenger headlight). Note bright yellow above the OD has faded, just like the red has.

 

 

Not every colour is found in all places, e.g. red more inside & Airfield Yellow outside. Of course, the vehicle has not lost paint everywhere to be definitive in all locations.

[ruxy]

Nearside front headlamp - is that blue paint under ?

 

When I see yellow & blue , then I think Coast Guard , NCB Opencast Executive.

 

May pay to prise / grind off plate covering chassis VIN branding , evens somebody has passed weld bead runs over & flush ground , or just ground out. Is there any branding mark on that plate ?

 

So many possibilities - how you have described the chassis , may be total Bitsa Walt or real deal on a "replacement" chassis that was civilian BUT correct DVLA witness procedure & their chassis marking to pass off ??

[soleil]

Nearside front headlamp - is that blue paint under ?

 

When I see yellow & blue , then I think Coast Guard , NCB Opencast Executive.

 

May pay to prise / grind off plate covering chassis VIN branding , evens somebody has passed weld bead runs over & flush ground , or just ground out. Is there any branding mark on that plate ?

 

So many possibilities - how you have described the chassis , may be total Bitsa Walt or real deal on a "replacement" chassis that was civilian BUT correct DVLA witness procedure & their chassis marking to pass off ??

 

 

There is blue by that headlamp yes. It also occurs in a few other odd places, though I can't think where off-hand. (What appear to be blue stripes on the side of the seatbox passenger's side are in fact dark green; it is the light.)

 

Mostly red on the cab bulkhead, some in the tub under the ply lining, dark green seat box & floorpan and yellow and OD layers outside with desert camo on top. The wheels are white beneath the sand camo. The bonnet is not original to the vehicle (no desert camo, hooks relocated to fit vehicle wings) and the rear hard top door has been replaced with a tailgate (this does have desert camo).

 

I can't see any branding on the plate. The thought has crossed my mind to grind it off, though if they were really determined there might be a hole underneath and I have no welding gear/knowhow to repair it. I may have no alternative though if I want to be certain about the VIN.

 

My thinking was if the vehicle was 'borrowed' from the RAF then getting rid of, covering up or changing the original VIN's would be a good idea and prevent any awkward questions: I am not convinced the chassis has been replaced. (Though at the moment I am not absolutely convinced about very much!)

[ruxy]

Does it have a NATO towing socket ? , can't see it or bracketry + correct bracket ? or fitted non-std. location , you state has a Hella DIN type towing socket - how is it wired in , I would expect looped into the NATO towing pack (all wired yellow but numbered).

 

Also - does it have a convoy lamp - any signs of mounting bracket / holes if stripped off ?

 

It does seem like a monumental Bitsa that somebody has done a fair job of militarization , normally I can soon zero in with Series.

 

-------

 

I have 57KG59 (abt. 1987) 90" TUL GS 12 volt , all straight but PO removed the convoy lamp & NATO socket , recently obtained same. Just the County seats to dispose of - although they are good so may hide under canvas duck covers , two folding forward facing seats in tub , matching County trim - probably retain.

 

I could never raise enthusiasm with coil sprung , never got into rivet-counting stage.

[soleil]

I have started a new thread for the vehicle itself as I was beginning to wander off topic:

 

http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?52347-SAS-Dinky-or-Walt-Dream&p=459728#post459728

 

Thank you for your interest.

[soleil]

Does it have a NATO towing socket ? , can't see it or bracketry + correct bracket ? or fitted non-std. location , you state has a Hella DIN type towing socket - how is it wired in , I would expect looped into the NATO towing pack (all wired yellow but numbered).

 

Also - does it have a convoy lamp - any signs of mounting bracket / holes if stripped off ?

 

It does seem like a monumental Bitsa that somebody has done a fair job of militarization , normally I can soon zero in with Series.

 

-------

 

I have 57KG59 (abt. 1987) 90" TUL GS 12 volt , all straight but PO removed the convoy lamp & NATO socket , recently obtained same. Just the County seats to dispose of - although they are good so may hide under canvas duck covers , two folding forward facing seats in tub , matching County trim - probably retain.

 

I could never raise enthusiasm with coil sprung , never got into rivet-counting stage.

 

NATO socket no.

Hella socket wiring not sure. I have loose wires and blue crimps all over the place and no dash lights come on when I start the engine. To be honest I have not tried the headlights etc yet! It is supposed to have had an MOT only a couple of years ago but as a civvie I am surprised there is no reversing light.

It does not have a convoy light. I will need to double-check exactly where they fit to check for bracket holes.

[soleil]

I assume the vehicle is GS rather than FFR (12V rather than 24V system) - I'm not aware of an official vehicle installation for the 319 - normally a GS landrover with a 14V DCCU charger as pictured would have a 351/2 VHF connected to the TUAAM via an Initiate box and a 320 HF

 

Do you have a picture of the non standard HF side mast or any residual mounting hardware in the back of the vehicle ? There were various non standard sets around in the 90s for specific purposes (certainly Harris Falcon and MEL PRC2000 have appeared via the usual surplus outlets) and any residual mounting hardware or rust may give a clue.

 

Regards

 

Iain

 

Hi,

You can see the gist of the side aerial mount and its setting here. I also have a close-up photo of the bracket if that would help.

[soleil]

Close-up of side aerial bracket