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3 churchills to be scrapped if not sold


eddy8men
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the 3 churchills from haltern range in Germany are to be cut up in the next week if no one comes forward to buy them. the tanks are off the range and in the scrap merchants yard. they are avavilable for £9k each. I have been talking to a german guy today with regard to their value, he wants to buy them and sell them on but I pointed out that they are worth no more than the scrap merchant is asking so no profit left for any middlemen ! if he doesn't save them then I might be able to get some parts but it doesn't look good. so if there is anyone reading this who wants to do their bit then step forward and be counted (tumbleweed moment) I can't save them all guys.

http://www.hartziel.de/_typen/churchark.htm

 

http://www.hartziel.de/_typen/churchavlb.htm

 

http://www.hartziel.de/_typen/churcharv.htm

 

rick

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if anyone wants the contact details then send me a pm. the twin ark is probably the most complete and would be fairly easy to return to a gun tank (already been done for nigel Montgomery's mk4 ). the arv would be my personal favourite as I am ex reme. the mk7 bridgelayer is also viable as I know of a complete bridge and attachments for sale in the uk. if you are thinking about it then be quick otherwise they will be on their way to china in little pieces destined to return as washing machines !

Edited by eddy8men
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I don't know much about restoring tanks, but judging from these photos, it looks like it would take more money in labor and fabrication than the value of the final product, unless someone is doing it themselves for pure enjoyment and places no opportunity cost on their time. I do hope someone can buy these and restore them or at least inventory them for future restoration.

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spoke again today to the german chap Thomas, the tanks are in a yard in Aachen and there are 5 churchills not 3, the 3 I posted earlier are there as well 2 other hulls that have mostly been stripped, that's the good news, the bad news is none of them can be sold complete and all would need to be cut in half apparently to meet the demilitarization rules. if i can arrange it I will fly out in the next week to go and have a shufti and see if there is a way to get around the rules.

even though they would need to be cut in half they would still be viable (except the mk7's)as the side armour could be removed and the hull frame cut and once with the new owner the armour could be refitted and the 3/4" box frame welded. (much easier than welding 2 halves of a Sherman together) !

if all else fails i will try to salvage what I can for myself and john's Churchill.

I will keep the updates coming as I get them.

 

rick

 

ps. thanks for the offers of help I have received so far

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Is it possible the demilitarisation rules (presumably German) might not apply on the grounds of age, nationality or something? Alternatively would going through a British museum help?

 

Are none of the museums interested in these things or are they just not aware?

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Very sad that they have to be cut up. Having said that it means that you will be able to get all the parts you need for your MK4 one would hope, being cut in half will make transport easier :-) You can't save them all.

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cutting up a 70 year old bridge laying machine for "De-militarization" rules is insane , and isn't the crap dealer being a little unrealistic at £9k each? if you figure 60,000 pounds of steel at scrap value of 3 cents a pound, that's less than 2K

Where does the 9K from from?

 

Anyway, good luck with the rescue,

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It sound a bit odd.

The armoured vehicles I have seen that has been Demiled has only have had holes cut, so the driver could be shot in case the person went berserk with it or to stop the vehicle. Not cut in half, it could be some one has misunderstod the rules

Edited by Niels v
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I think that because it has passed to the scrap dealer he is obligated to cut them up so maybe demil was not his intention more like a contractual thing but anyway I plan on going out on Monday and will see what can be done. apparently the yard is full of postwar kit as well. I will take pics of everything and put them up.

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I think that because it has passed to the scrap dealer he is obligated to cut them up so maybe demil was not his intention more like a contractual thing but anyway I plan on going out on Monday and will see what can be done.
come to think of it I've seen that here was well. There was one auction lot on government liquidation that was for half a million pounds of tank tracks, maybe M60 or Abram's, came with the Stipulation that it had to be cut up and verified. In that case though it was stuff they don't want re-sold to conflict zones that aren't pre-approved by Washington. Weird to see it on antique steel.

 

apparently the yard is full of postwar kit as well. I will take pics of everything and put them up.
so now it's treasure hunt, SWEET

A 12 pack of good Beer might go a long way to lubing the wheels of commerce too :D

 

Curious though, how do you guys get an AFV from Germany to UK? Is it just as straight forward as strapping it to a flat-bed rail-car and sending it thru the Chunnel?

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I think the scrap dealer may be confusing the regulations regarding the demilitarisation of US sponsored (financed) equipment which requires the vehicles to be cut in two as in those M8 from Italy that I put up some years ago. Good luck if you're out to Germany get some good pics -I'd love to see any evidence of numbers on them.

 

Cheers

 

Steveimg004b.jpg

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I think the scrap dealer may be confusing the regulations regarding the demilitarisation of US sponsored (financed) equipment which requires the vehicles to be cut in two as in those M8 from Italy that I put up some years ago. Good luck if you're out to Germany get some good pics -I'd love to see any evidence of numbers on them.

 

Cheers

 

Steve[ATTACH=CONFIG]105301[/ATTACH]

 

Apologies for the hijack but would that be THE steveo578?!

 

If so welcome back mate, have wondered a couple of times where you'd got to...

 

Tim

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all you need to bring steve out of hibernation is the thought of a few as yet undiscovered churchills :D. i'm looking forward to seeing the 2 hulls that no one has heard of, apparently both quite heavily stripped but still with suspension and track. I would think they might be mk7's possibly avre's.

I've arranged to meet the german chap Thomas at midday Monday at the scrap dealer so we will see, just don't expect any updates until Tuesday as Monday is going to be around 30 hours non stop. thankfully I am travelling with a dealer that has asked to come along, so we can share the driving.

there is also a mk7 avre gate guardian floating around somewhere that has been gifted to a friend's ex services association so might get a look at that if it's nearby.

 

rick

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hi fella's

I got back this morning from the scrapyard in Germany and unfortunately I wasn't able to save anything not even spare parts, let alone complete tanks.

the deal got off to a good enough start with us getting to the yard at 11.30 meeting up with our contact Thomas and having a look at the tanks with a view to salvaging maybe 10 ton of spares. at around midday we left for lunch for an hour and when we came back the deal was off and the scrap guys had decided It was too much hassle and not enough profit. Thomas tried his best to cut a new deal or salvage something but they weren't interested and we had to leave. I have to say it was a bitter blow to have to walk away and i'm still angry but there was nothing I could do.

 

here's a few pics of the tanks, I will post more later. the firs two are a mk2 arv and the other three are a postwar bridgelayer

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Edited by eddy8men
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sorry to hear your efforts were for naught.

 

Does remind me of the wrecking yard dealers I used to deal with when I restored classic cars. A cantankerous, uncooperative, bunch of sour jack-asses who's business model had nothing to do with preservation or making money. They were Kings of their own little ****-pile and they were bent on making sure you knew it too.

 

Real Shame for the Mk2, WW2 vintage and it still has the Turret too.:embarrassed: They couldn't at least let than one go out of the 5?

A-holes.

Edited by draganm
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That's awful news but sadly not that surprising :(

.... I spent many years in the secondhand game dealing in re-usable machinery and it always used to really p$%* me off when a scrap dealer had an idea of what something was worth in his head and refused to be budged from it ....I've had countless scrappys tell me

"there's 10 ton in that mate...that's worth £120 a ton to me so if you want it?....I'll have 2 grand off you... ( and this bit always made me cringe ) ....to make it 'worth the bother' of selling it to you ! "

 

I'd patiently point out that it wasn't going to clear £120 a tonne for him as he was going to have to lamp it up into OA to get that.... and cutting whatever 'it' happened to be ... was going to take 'X' amount of gas and oxy and the guy on the lamp would also need a day or so's wages so...... it would be significantly less than £120 a tonne by the time he weighed it in...so ..how about taking my offer of a maybe a £1000 in your hand now and save yourself the hassle ?

 

No matter how politely you argued?..... usually the answer would always be the same and I'd walk away empty handed.....Sometimes I did up my offers considerably to force a deal but a lot of the time it wasn't sensible business to do so not unless I knew I had a definite sale for it...if it was going to maybe sit in my yard for year or two before I found a buyer?... then it had to be bought at the right price or leave it there and walk away :( ..... it really really jarred me off though to have to pay what was way over the fair rate for something ......especially when you knew damn well his alternative was to eventually weigh it in for a helluva lot less :(

 

 


.....
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one of the things that made a little sad was the thought that if those ww2 tanks were from any other nation they would most likely have been saved but because they were british and no one seems to give a toss about our own nation, they were cut up and now any history they had to tell about the men that fought in them is gone and that makes me a bit sad and angry. it has also strengthened my resolve to try harder and to put the feelers out to get hold of the tanks before they end up in the scrapyard. how much one man can do is questionable but i'll give a go anyway.

 

rick

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andy you hit the nail on the head ref the tiger, the thing I was saying is that if it were any other countries tanks they would be worth serious money, why are ours different. pisses me off royaly.

anyway enough preaching and on to the pics.

this is the end of the line for the last Churchill ark

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andy you hit the nail on the head ref the tiger, the thing I was saying is that if it were any other countries tanks they would be worth serious money, why are ours different. pisses me off royaly.

it's British equipment in a German scrap yard, with government regulations involved requiring destruction, and it seems we've all concluded that scrap-yard men all share the same Neanderthal gene pool , as in impossible to reason or bargain with.

 

It was a good effort on your part but the deck was seriously stacked against you.

 

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]105435[/ATTACH]

post war Conqueror? If so that's a pretty rare piece of kit too, no?
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