WW1 Dennis truck find

[Sisu]

Were the gearbox parts rusted because of contact with steel bolts, or what?

 

Thanks, Cedric

[Minesweeper]

These bits are all 90 years old - the trucks probably did not work for more than 30 years at the most - so that means that they have been laid aside for another 60 years - and almost certainly outside, not under cover and open to the elements. Some parts like the aluminium ones obviously do not rust but they still corrode - especially if you have two unlike metals next to each other. Large parts of the engine and the gearbox case for instance were made out of aluminium. The engine was under cover all of its life so that got off very lightly - but the Radiator was in a very poor condition where there were parts of brass and aluminium next to each and in direct and continual contact with the water from the cooling system leading to internal corrosion! You rarely find parts that have been carefully put aside for all of these years - they mainly come from Scrapyards.

 

The Gearbox being worked on at present was put aside like this - but before it was put aside, one of the covers was removed so that rain ran inside the actual Gearbox - probably for years. I think that you will see from photos that Tim posted previously of the inners of the gearbox, that they are deeply pitted with rust.

 

I will post a picture of another Gearbox tomorrow which is still sealed - but deeply corroded on the outside - the outside is beyond repair but I hope that the actual gears will still be in good order. Will advise progress with pictures on that one as it is stripped down.

 

Tony

[Tony B]

Amazing, modern vehicle manufacturers make a great deal of using light weight materials such as Aluminium. Yet here it is being used on trucks damn near one hundered years old. Fantastic enginnering, I'll bet the original buliders would consider you craftsmen.

[Minesweeper]

Here are some photos of the second Gearbox - the one that is shortly to be taken apart in the hope that the inners are in good condition. As far as we know, it was left lying in a Norfolk Scrapyard, out in the open for many years, so you can see what the weather has done to it on the outside. An excellent example of corrosion!

 

This one, funnily enough. is the most complete one of the three Gearboxes that we have, and is the only one that still had the cast iron oil-filler cap on it, and I took that off the other day to clean it up for the Gearbox that we plan to use. Encouragingly, the oil that has dripped out from it since then is thick and black and shows no sign of rust, so I remain optimistic that it is OK on the inside! It is lying on its side on the floor at the moment in the workshop and I hope to get it up on the stand very shortly when we will take the Lid off! The moment of truth!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Tony

Edited August 3, 2008 by Minesweeper
Different photo medium

[Tony B]

:-D 'Bout the only time you want to see thick gloopy oil.

[Great War truck]

On the bottom of the scuttle that we just acquired was the remains of an arrow to mark top dead centre on the fly wheel. From the remains of that one Steve made a new one.

 

 

In fact Steve is down in Devon for a few days and has just fitted that and the original oil gauge that we found at Beaulieu some years ago.

 

 

 

 

It is great when everything starts coming together like this.

 

Tim (too)

[Old Bill]

From the remains of that one Steve made a new one.

 

 

 

Actually, that's not quite right. The bent and corroded timing arrow salvaged from the rotten scuttle has actually cleaned up very well. When I had another look at the scuttle we have made, I found two holes which we had put in without knowing what they were for. It fitted perfectly. Wonderful!

 

Although the oil gauge is a Dennis and was a great find at Beaulieu, it is not of quite the right pattern as the fitting should be on the bottom rather than the back. I have managed to make it fit reasonably unobtrusively and we will fit the correct gauge if ever we find one.

 

Steve

Edited August 4, 2008 by Old Bill
Add further detail.

[Great War truck]

The bent and corroded timing arrow salvaged from the rotten scuttle has actually cleaned up very well.

 

So thats the original! I didnt realise that. It looked too good by far.

 

Tim (too)

[Great War truck]

More progress with the gearbox repair. The new assembly has been welded up and bolted into the box. Looks to be very promising.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The rotten box has been moved onto the stand and all we have to do now is get it open to see if the gears are any better than the ones we have.

 

 

 

 

Tim (too)

[Great War truck]

The drain plug eventually came off the spare gearbox today. The oil looks good:

 

 

And inside, a pleasant suprise, as the gears all look to be in good condition. A bit of parrafin and a rag (as well as a bit of swearing and a great deal of time) and they will be as good as new.

 

 

 

Tim (too)

[Tony B]

There aren't enough superlatives for the quality work you have put into that vehicle. :bow:

[abn deuce]

I m sure you are very happy and releaved to find the gears sitting in oil and not water . Did they use a heavy gear oil back then or was the stuff some odd concotion ?

[Old Bill]

Yes, we are very pleased to see oily gears! Father has had a bit of a clean of the top few teeth and they look to be in superb order so we are very fortunate. The oil itself is really thick and sticky and truly evil stuff to get off your hands. The manual says that the box should be filled with 'three parts gear oil to one part lubricating oil' but is no more specific than that.

 

The FWD manual gives full specifications for all of the lubricants used including viscosity and adhesiveness. It particularly states that they must be mineral oils with no vegetable or animal fats or residues of any kind. I couldn't interpret what to use for the FWD gearbox so I rang Morris Lubricants' Technical Department. The chap there said,

 

'Let me look in the book.' He actually had original records on file!

 

'You need a 460 grade compounded steam cylinder oil'.

 

So that is what we have used ever since and will put the same in the Dennis. It too is exceptionally thick and sticky and has no EP additives to attack any bronze. It seems that one just has to know who to ask.

 

Cheers!

 

Steve

[Tony B]

Been meaning to ask. Does your beast have a leather clutch?

[Degsy]

Yes, we are very pleased to see oily gears! Father has had a bit of a clean of the top few teeth and they look to be in superb order so we are very fortunate. The oil itself is really thick and sticky and truly evil stuff to get off your hands. The manual says that the box should be filled with 'three parts gear oil to one part lubricating oil' but is no more specific than that.

 

The FWD manual gives full specifications for all of the lubricants used including viscosity and adhesiveness. It particularly states that they must be mineral oils with no vegetable or animal fats or residues of any kind. I couldn't interpret what to use for the FWD gearbox so I rang Morris Lubricants' Technical Department. The chap there said,

 

'Let me look in the book.' He actually had original records on file!

 

'You need a 460 grade compounded steam cylinder oil'.

 

So that is what we have used ever since and will put the same in the Dennis. It too is exceptionally thick and sticky and has no EP additives to attack any bronze. It seems that one just has to know who to ask.

 

Cheers!

 

Steve

 

Morris Lubricants are a mine of information which is why I have recommended them several times on here.

[abn deuce]

Out standing , thought you might have to have the sludge go through a lab to figure out what it once was ! I m impressed that Your friends at Morris Lub. could be so helpful. the Viscosity must make up for the primitive shaft seals of the time "cant leak it it's thick enough" no chance that will drain off the gears if the truck sets a while either .

[Stormin]

If the new oil is anything like as thick as the old it'll no doubt make gear changes whilst cold a bit awkward. Probably uses up quite a few of the engines horse power as well.

 

Compliments on an excellent restoration by the way. Good to see the tradition of British quality engineering is alive and well, just it's more in the home workshop these days.

[Old Bill]

Been meaning to ask. Does your beast have a leather clutch?

 

No, this one is lined but with some sort of woven asbestos type material. As the engine drove a fire pump, the clutch was only used once every time the engine was run. As a result, the lining is in splendid condition so we will simply put it back.

 

I'm not sure whether the viscosity helps the leakage very much although, generally our gearboxes don't leak a lot. The engine is the main problem. The Autocars only do 16 miles to a pint! The thick oils don't seem to affect the gear changes noticeably although admittedly, we tend only to go out in the Summer. There is more effect on trying to start the engine which is something of a feat of strength at the best of times.

 

Thanks for your comments, Stormin. We aim to show that the Brits can still make things!

 

Steve

[LeeEnfield]

There aren't enough superlatives for the quality work you have put into that vehicle. :bow:

 

 

Totally Agree, there; Tony.

 

 

Nice One, Guys.........

 

Andy

[abn deuce]

The Autocars only do 16 miles to a pint!

 

Engine oil I m guessing , or is that the distance the driver can manage from pub to pub ?

[Stormin]

The Autocars only do 16 miles to a pint!

 

Sounds much better if you say 128 miles to the gallon! (imperial)

[Great War truck]

Tony has wiped out more oil, but it is getting awkward to do now so the rest will have to wait until it is all in bits. The gears all slide a little up and down on the splines so it all looks to be very promisng:

 

 

The lid looks to be quite good to, just needs a good sand blasting:

 

 

This is how the clutch looks. Not had a lot of use:

 

 

Finally, this is one of two wedges that Tony has been making to help secure the refabricated part of the gearbox to the original. One down.

 

 

Tim (too)

[Great War truck]

As the old ali is not as straight as the steel, and unless we took precautions the bolts might pull through we made up some Devcon and smoothed that on top of the box.

 

 

Then with some new bolts made up by Father (note split pins for every bolt inside the box as if one were to drop off the result would be catastrophic)

 

 

We then bolted down the new bracket to the box casing:

 

 

Time for a quick photo of the refurbished casing with the one that we are about to strip down:

 

 

 

Then with the lid on

 

 

But, we notice that the lid has a crack in it. The lid is integral to the strength of the box so we must get another one. Luckily we have a spare but it is not in such nice condition. More work.

 

[LeeEnfield]

Fantastic work, guys..............words alone cannot hope to express the quality shown in the posted pics.............

 

Many thanks for sharing.

 

All the best,

 

Andy

[Grasshopper]

Always annoying when you find a crack after prep work and painting. I had that after overhauling a matador axle. Just about to fit the second hub after rebuilding the whole axle, then found a crack in the casing which was only visible with the new paint on. Had to scrap the whole axle.