1914 Dennis Lorry

[andypugh]

15 minutes ago, BenHawkins said:

We have withdrawn our Brighton run application; I was struggling to find anyone who wanted to transport it down to London on a bank holiday weekend

Driving it down would be too much of an adventure? 

(I think it would be for me, but I am less of a loony than you)

[BenHawkins]

6 minutes ago, andypugh said:

Driving it down would be too much of an adventure? 

(I think it would be for me, but I am less of a loony than you)

I think the 40 hours of driving might be a loony sized adventure even if the likely ETA for a registration number (and therefore first test drive) wasn't a week before!

[andypugh]

32 minutes ago, BenHawkins said:

I think the 40 hours of driving might be a loony sized adventure even if the likely ETA for a registration number (and therefore first test drive) wasn't a week before!

I guess you have a chassis number so are not in quite the same situation as I was with the Ner-a-Car. 

(For the benefit of others, this is what you need to do to register an old vehicle with no reg number or chassis number)

Copied from my Blog:

 

How to register a vehicle with no VIN or chassis number

I tried to do some web research about how to register a vehicle like mine, with no chassis number while making sure to get an age-related plate, tax exemption and MOT exemption. 

 

Firstly it is very much easier if there is a chassis number. The DVLA do not appear to have an exhaustive list of chassis numbers. This is a hint. 

 

However, I didn't have a chassis number so the process is this:

 

1) Get a dating certificate from an owners' club. I got one from the VMCC and it took a little over a month. 

2) Send off the V55/5 form. This is a paper form that you have to apply for on the DVLA web-site and takes 10 days to arrive. You can save time by sending for this in advance. 

3) Return the V55/5.  You will need lots of supporting info, including an insurance certificate. You might need to shop around. Footman-James were adamant that a bike could not be insured without a frame number or reg number, Adrian Flux were happy to insure on the engine number. If you don't have a chassis number the form will come back to you with a new VIN to have stamped on the Chassis by a garage, a demand for the £55 new-registration fee (new VIN = new registration) and a demand for a NOVA declaration reference. 

4) Send off for the NOVA paper form. This is an HMRC form for imports. You can do it all online, except if your vehicle isn't actually an import. In which case nothing fits and you need the paper form and a covering letter. This also takes 10 days to arrive, so send off for it in advance. You can read the HMRC guidelines and end up convinced you don't need a NOVA for this situation, and you would be right, but you do need a reference number and letter to prove it. 

5) Get the chassis stamped then send off the NOVA letter, V55/5, dating certificate, photos, £55 cheque, letter confirming chassis has been stamped, proof of address, driving license photocopy and insurance certificate then wait 3 more weeks. 

6) Shiny new V62 arrives with a registration number to use.

[IAN_B]

On 05/03/2018 at 6:57 AM, andypugh said:

How to register a vehicle with no VIN or chassis number

I tried to do some web research about how to register a vehicle like mine, with no chassis number while making sure to get an age-related plate, tax exemption and MOT exemption. 

 

 

3) Return the V55/5.  You will need lots of supporting info, including an insurance certificate. You might need to shop around. Footman-James were adamant that a bike could not be insured without a frame number or reg number, Adrian Flux were happy to insure on the engine number. If you don't have a chassis number the form will come back to you with a new VIN to have stamped on the Chassis by a garage, a demand for the £55 new-registration fee (new VIN = new registration) and a demand for a NOVA declaration reference. 

 

In the extract from andypugh's post above, I am wondering what kind of insurance is being referred to, not being familiar with the UK's system. Here in Oz we have insurance known as Compulsory Third Party (CTP) which is a precursor to registration of the vehicle. This is quite different from accident insurance, which is optional and available in several forms including from specialists in historic and classic vehicles. Ian

[mtskull]

In some ways the absence of a chassis number makes things easier, as does the fact that the manufacturer no longer exists. 

I enquired about registering a 1934 BMW motorcycle and was told categorically by the DVLA that they would not accept evidence from the appropriate club; only an extract from the manufacturer's production records would do.

BMW will provide this information but require proof of ownership in the form of....... a registration document!

[BenHawkins]

The registration application has been slightly delayed but should hopefully sort itself out without too many problems. I have had it insured for driving under the chassis number for several months but I can see how the insurance companies would struggle to insure without a chassis number.

It has been a week of completing small jobs from the list such as tightening the engine bolts and fitting split pins; non of which are photogenic.

I have painted the Tufnol tube and threaded through some spark plug leads. I will fit it properly one evening.

Most of the weekend has been spent on the doors; the first job was chiselling out the doors and door posts to take the hinges.

 

There was plenty of scribing, sawing, filing and drilling required to fit the beading.

 

[BenHawkins]

I then scrubbed the aluminium and gave it a coat of etch primer.

 

And some undercoat before hanging the door.

 

It even closes properly but I need to put a little more thought into the latch as I am not sure that what I have will work to my satisfaction.

 

So I proceeded to fit a leather strap to prevent the door from hitting the mudguard if allowed to swing in the wind. I don't know if the door pocket is a bit too posh for a lorry but I thought it would have been useful for the drivers to keep their paperwork (or sandwiches/sat nav) safe.

 

We then fitted the second door but the cab side is not quite ready to fit and there is still quite a lot of work to do on the beading.

 

[andypugh]

50 minutes ago, BenHawkins said:

I don't know if the door pocket is a bit too posh for a lorry

It's quite a posh lorry if it has two doors!

[BenHawkins]

On ‎11‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 8:50 PM, andypugh said:

It's quite a posh lorry if it has two doors!

One door does not get provided with a handle on the outside. The windscreen is still on the to-do list.

It has been another week of painting and completing small jobs. One of these was to trim the boards to line the tool compartment under the seat.

 

Another was refitting the carburettor.

The cab side was screwed in place and the beading was finished on the drivers door.

[BenHawkins]

I have bent some copper pipe to link the petrol filter to the carburettor and silver soldered the nipples in place that I made previously.

 

I found this handle in an autojumble several years ago; I have given it a clean and made a small brass ring to support it where it passes through the door.

 

 

[BenHawkins]

I took the propshaft to work so I could use the Bridgeport milling machine as it is a more sensible size for cross drilling for the 3/8" pins. I started by scribing a line along the complete length, then lined the chuck axis up with the vice jaw before moving over by half the diameter of the tube and locked that axis off. I rotated the tube in the vice until a pointer in the chuck was coincident with the scribed line. My level was then used to align the ball.

 

I drilled and reamed the first hole so I could drive the pin into it to prevent further movement of the ball. The procedure was repeated for the second drive pin and the same thing done at the other end to secure the jaw. 

The next step will be to silver solder both joints into the tube. The whole assembly is around 18kg; I have never silver soldered anything this massive so I am trying to make sure all my heating equipment is fully functional.

 

I blasted and painted the tailpipe for the exhaust and have bolted it to the silencer. No news from the DVLA yet but I am looking forward to having a number to paint on that plate! 

 

[BenHawkins]

I have cut these two pieces of ash to support the floor just inside the door.

 

I have fitted the mortice locks to both doors along with the escutcheon plate on the passenger door (there is no handle on the drivers side as it is basically impossible to get out from that side). I had to pack out the strike plate on the passenger door so I have ordered some more brass so I can make a thicker one.  

 

The weather was good today so it was mostly spent flatting back paintwork and applying more paint. I did however sand back the sides and back of the cab to be level with the roof boards so I could give the roof another coat of paint. Hopefully we will soon be able to fit the zinc sheet. 

 

[BenHawkins]

The weather was fairly good on Friday morning so we decided to solder the zinc sheet together for the roof. As mentioned previously it would ideally be 1220mm wide but all the zinc mills seem to be limited to 1100mm (I have been to see one in Duisburg and can confirm their limit is 1100mm).

The Thornycroft was used as a temporary workbench to cut two lengths from the roll of zinc.

We scrubbed the zinc clean with an abrasive pad, applied flux and overlapped the two sheets by 5/8". Some fireboard (left over from building the house) was used under the zinc sheet to prevent burning the OSB sheet. The two sheets were clamped down and the soldering was carried out with a 500W iron of Chinese supply; I doubt this means any European regulations but was sensibly priced and was certainly up to the job.

Another scrub with some thinners to remove the flux and it looks reasonably respectable; hopefully it will not be too difficult to fit to the shape of the roof!

 

 

[BenHawkins]

I made a new (thicker) strike plate for the passenger door.

 

I have shaped the piece of ash to go around the gear selector gate and cut the two pieces of mahogany that will support the pedal boards. 

 

And of course some more painting has been done.

[BenHawkins]

As you all know, I have been searching for proof of the original registration number for this van. At the start of the week I was sent a photo it whilst in operation with Ernest Shentall who purchased it at the start of 1914. It clearly shows the registration number R.42; unfortunately I have not been able to get permission from the copyright holder to reproduce it here (I am still working on it). It is also unfortunate that the registration number is currently on a 2008 Bentley so I would not be able to claim it anyway. Back in 1977 it was on a Volvo.

Hopefully I should get an age related number soon but it is still great to have filled in another bit of the history.

My friend Richard visited and we had a practice at silver soldering a large washer to a bit of 2.5" diameter steel. It did not go quite to plan; the washer got much too hot before we managed to heat the bulk of the bar and I think this destroyed the easyflo flux. A perfect mix of propane and air should give a flame temperature of 1980 Celsius and a thermocouple confirmed the all the propane nozzle I have exceed 1100 Celsius (the maximum temperature my k type thermocouple is meant to be exposed to)

 

But, because I burnt the flux the steel was not protected and I could only manage to melt a lump of solder onto the surface rather than capillary it into the joint. 

 

When it comes to the propshaft I will obviously have to put it across the hearth so it is possible to have more control of what is heated and at least the joints have a thermal mass closer to that of the tube. More practice; time to look in the metal skip for some more scrap! 

[BenHawkins]

It has been a busy week as we managed to purchase some more land and had to put up a fence! I don't think this will allow us any more projects but should ease constraints on the current ones.

I still managed to make a bit more progress on the bodywork (and the usual painting). I cut more triangles to support the floor and lined them up to give a 1" recess for the boards.

Then belt sanded the end flush.

After those were painted and fitted it was possible to measure for the floor boards.

I cut the first board to length and planed the edge to match that angle of the floor.

 

The next board required holes and slots to clear the pedals and steering column. It ends up a bit flimsy in this area so I will probably put some steel on the back.

 

I did not manage to complete the third board; I can save that one for another day as it has more notches and the top edge needs to be planed as well!

Having stopped at a petrol station on two occasions; there are two gallons of petrol in the tank and so far none on the floor.

[andypugh]

18 hours ago, BenHawkins said:

But, because I burnt the flux the steel was not protected and I could only manage to melt a lump of solder onto the surface rather than capillary it into the joint. 

Is it possible to change the flame chemistry? A reducing flame should cause less oxidation, but might not be hot enough. 

Is the real prop-shaft a tube or a bar? 

[smiffy]

 What flux do you use ? I use Tenacity no 5  which seems to stand the higher temperatures and I would use oxy acetylene  as the heat source . Is it possible to  tig weld the propshaft .   Mike

[andypugh]

20 minutes ago, smiffy said:

Is it possible to  tig weld the propshaft .   Mike

Not in 1914 :-)

It might not have enough shear area anyway. 

[BenHawkins]

31 minutes ago, smiffy said:

 What flux do you use ? I use Tenacity no 5  which seems to stand the higher temperatures and I would use oxy acetylene  as the heat source . Is it possible to  tig weld the propshaft .   Mike

Thanks Mike, I used easyflo so only good for 800C and have ordered some Tenacity no 5 to get the extra 100C.

I could fit a jubilee clip around the burner nozzle to reduce the air and give a reducing (and cooler) flame; I am working in a well ventilated area so the risk of Carbon Monoxide poisoning will be minimal.

The joints could be welded into the prop shaft tube but I am trying to keep to the original drawings.

 

 

 

[Old Bill]

Hi Ben.

I was going to ask what flux you used. Is that ordinary EasyFlo flux? As Smiffy says a Tenacity Flux is better for higher temperatures. I use Johnson Matthey Tenacity 4a or HT5 from CuP Alloys.

I must say that your piece of steel looks very hot to me. I would suggest that it should only just be starting to glow for a 455 grade silver solder but that may, of course, just be the camera.

I am going to have to put our propshaft together in two weeks time the same way. Despite my love of silver solder, I am not looking forward to it!

Good luck!

Steve

[smiffy]

Would the joint not have been  originally  spelter brazed .   The spelter is first placed inside the tube ,the flange is fluxed with borax and pressed home ,the whole unit is placed in the forge and brought to heat  and positioned so the spelter runs into the  joint . Spelter is a equivalent of modern brazing rod but in pellet form  This is how axle ends were fixed into tubular axles on many small  cars including Frazer Nash    Mike

[andypugh]

On 09/04/2018 at 9:55 PM, Old Bill said:

going to have to put our propshaft together in two weeks time the same way. Despite my love of silver solder, I am not looking forward to it!

An induction heater would be ideal, but I think that the cheap 1kW ones from eBay would be too feeble for the task. 

 

[BenHawkins]

The camera does make the steel look brighter than in real life but we certainly overheated it. We used two burners to heat it, the larger one is meant to be 86kW and the smaller one about 40kW; it suggests we should be able to heat the real job up to temperature, especially as I have just purchased a second 86kW burner from ebay (other auction sites are available).

Spelter brazing looks interesting; can I buy the spelter pre-made?

Thanks for the suggestions!

[BenHawkins]

I have fitted the pressure gauge to the bulkhead and bent some copper pipe to connect it to the engine. The next step was to fit the nipples I had made previously. It was a chance to give the Tenacity no 5 flux a go.

 

That was successful so we cranked it over for a couple of minutes on the handle until we had oil pressure.

 

I then decided to fit the ignition switch, this needed a 2" hole and three 1/8" holes for the securing screws. This is fairly easy to mark out as you can set some dividers to half the PCD and mark out the corners of a hexagon and only use the three you need. The large hole was cut with a hole saw as I happened to have one the right size left over from building the house.