Jump to content

CVR(T) FV103 Spartan VS. Hotchkiss 22-2 Schützenpanzer help


teletech

Recommended Posts

So, trying to decide on my first tracked vehicle and thought I'd throw it out to the community for input...I went to the Littlefield auction and while I was too slow to move money and throw caution to the wind I did get a chance to sit in some nice armor and get the itch. I came away thinking the British units were quite nice but really liked that little French job, it was just much too expensive for me.

 

The CVR(T): has excellent speed and maneuverability, a ready source of spare parts, all the manuals are in English. The armor is aluminum. The transmissions are problematic, the Jag motor is, well a Jag motor and track, while available is expensive to ship and has pretty short life. Also, if you are really lucky (or have deep pockets) you can find it with an common cummins diesel.

 

The 22-2: Is rarer, tends to sell for more money, has much better visibility for the driver. Seems to have better interior space and while the track seems scarce has big easily replaceable track pads! Finding other parts is bound to be hard.The armor is steel and seems to have better protection(?) It's also pretty slow and heavy. Plus there is the problem of the jokes about the French and tanks which is a bigger issue than I would have thought, especially when I tell people it's really slow going in reverse.

 

The French apc is a little more money but seems below market.

I suppose I should mention also those Schutzenpanzer Sauer SPzA1 I see, lovely and cheap but the width makes for challenging shipping and I'm worried about on-road and on-trail suitablity. Any reason I should revisit the option?

 

Fuel consumption figures are hard to come by, the FV103 seems to be about 4.5-6MPG with the gas motor but no clue on the other.In the real world, is the speed important, which armor is actually better? Al picks up dings and can burn but the steel could spall any ideas of real-world protection against threats like .223, 30-06ap, .50AP, etc?

Any input from the community, anybody have the SpZ and how do you like it?

Resale value? I have to keep the wife happy, amazingly she is being a good sport about the whole thing, must be a keeper. icon_smile.gif

 

Sorry for the cross-post from a US site but I wasn't registerd here yet and I know you lads will likely have the answers I seek.

 

thanks in advance for your input.

P_

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We have had 8 CVRTs over the years and currently run 2 diesels and one petrol. I'd go for the CVRT every time. They are easy to work on, mostly reliable and spares can be found fairly easily. I like the diesel, it has more grunt and you have less worries about ignition systems or overworking the engine. We have a large group of cvrt users here for help and advice.

 

If you buy the French vehicle where are you going to get parts and who will help you out when you need advice?

 

Chris

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would say if you are afraid of the neighbours taking shots at you, it might be worth moving first? Also fuel consumption shouldn't really be an issue with a tracked armoured vehicle, just keep pouring it in and don't look at the price! It is going to be poor on any of them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with Chris, if you're worrying about fuel consumption then tracked armour isn't for you. ;)

 

CVRTs are brilliant. Simple to work on, small enough to store and transport around without too many issues. I wouldn't say they have any more problems with engines and transmissions than any other vehicle. You just have to drive them sensibly and remember than anything that's approaching 40 years old is going to need to be driven with a little more care. You thrash it and will break - regardless of who made it.

 

As for speed, yes a CVRT will do 50mph however make sure your tracks are in good condition. If you throw a track at that speed the results aren't really worth thinking about.

 

Anyway... CVRT all the way!

 

James

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Saurer.jpgI would seriously consider the Saurer we now have 4 in the collection I help look after, we have 1 performing this weekend at the Heywood Tanks event advertised on this forum. They are by far the most driver friendly tank I have ever driven ( I have experience a few ! Took test in CVRT and like them), we also have a Stormer playing this weekend (diesel CVRT long wheelbase).

You could of course go for the ultimate and get a CET FV180 !

Edited by antar
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Worryingly you appear to be interested in the armour (ballistics) performance ...... is there something you are not telling us!!:-D

 

Well, it's silly to spend the money for armour if it doesn't work :) and remember that since I live in the USA there are an *awful lot* of guns around. I was more than a bit shocked to see the French light tank with live 90mm gun sell for just $26K at auction this month (and annoyed I had left the room).

Just thinking that if there was a disaster near where I live and the road is closed so I decide to take my armour to town and some survivalist rancher took offense and opened up on me with his AR or Barrett or if I was out on some BLM land and a pot farmer decides "the feds aren't going to run over my crops this time." Accidents happen.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No contest mate - CVRT all the way.... And it comes with a BV for making a brew!

 

Well, I suppose a pretty one-sided discussion shouldn't surprise me on a UK based site but I think you have all made the somewhat obvious point that the CVR(T) is a much more popular choice. I could ask on the french MV forum for their view if I could even find one (heh, now I'm doing it).

There seems to be dozens of owners (at least), websites, and perhaps a hundred videos on youtube on the CVRT and about two on the Hotchkiss. Looking at service life, support, and maneuverability it is clear the CVRT is the hands-down winner.

I suppose something that I can read the manual for would be nice too and it seems the risk of jokes is too real to be ignored.

OK, lacking ANY real dissent from two countries on the subject it looks like the winner is the CVRT.

Now to file my form-6 and go shopping.

 

I'm new to the field but still disagree with those who say the fuel economy doesn't matter. I could buy a 423 much more cheaply and it would take many miles to burn up the initial cost difference but looking at the thing in terms of total cost of ownership it's easier to justify driving something that gets 5mpg than 2mpg if all the other costs are similar especially as fuel prices rise, the vehicle itself is a cost you might at least get your wife to believe you can someday recover by selling the vehicle but if I can smile as widely for $3/mile as for $6/mile I need to take that into consideration.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would suggest that you seriously consider the 432 or something wheeled like the Saracen. Good steel vehicles which can be had for a reasonable price and have good parts availability.

 

I'd personally like to get a 434. In "American" it's about the coolest "pickup truck" you can get :D

 

Cheers,

Terry

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would suggest that you seriously consider the 432 or something wheeled like the Saracen. Good steel vehicles which can be had for a reasonable price and have good parts availability.

 

I'd personally like to get a 434. In "American" it's about the coolest "pickup truck" you can get :D

 

Cheers,

Terry

 

I have a 434 for sale in a couple of months time should you be interested, we are just going through it at the moment so it will be in excellent condition. PM me if serious in owning one, the 2 recently advertised on Milweb have been snapped up very quickly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, it's silly to spend the money for armour if it doesn't work :) and remember that since I live in the USA there are an *awful lot* of guns around...Just thinking that if there was a disaster near where I live and the road is closed so I decide to take my armour to town and some survivalist rancher took offense and opened up on me with his AR or Barrett or if I was out on some BLM land and a pot farmer decides "the feds aren't going to run over my crops this time." Accidents happen.

 

Only in America...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I to am curious as to why in any potential "disaster" situation you would want to go riding into town in your armour. I can't think of a quicker way to get in the way of the real emergency services trying to do their job... but hey ho!

 

Yes, fuel is an important factor to consider when buying any vehicle and I'm glad to see you're trying to take into account the total cost of ownership. However, I fear you may be over-estimating the importance of fuel.. Owning tracked armour is not a cheap hobby regardless of what your fuel consumption figures are.

 

For example, I sold my 432 (which I was running on FREE fuel at probably half the fuel consumption of a CVRT) to buy a CVRT. I did this because the CVRT is more practical to own in general than the 432 despite the increased fuel costs. It is easier to work on, it fits in my garage saving me storage fees, it's easier and cheaper to transport so overall owning a CVRT actually saves me money over a 432. Of course, maybe these factors are irrelevant to you, I don't know...

 

"Well, I suppose a pretty one-sided discussion shouldn't surprise me on a UK based site.."

 

Personally, I think that's a pretty unhelpful comment. People took their time to give you advice and opinions, which you asked for. Yes, CVRT's are popular over here, for the reasons I and others have listed above... it's one of the reasons they sell for twice what 432's do. I got plenty of smiles in my 432, but the CVRT is even better... Yes, they have their issues and pros and cons, but so does any type of tracked armour. Personally I'd love a Chieftain and I have access to a place to store and use one... But it's not the fuel costs that put me off buying one, it's the idea of the repair bills that scare me!

 

Horses for courses...

 

James

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I to am curious as to why in any potential "disaster" situation you would want to go riding into town in your armour. I can't think of a quicker way to get in the way of the real emergency services trying to do their job... but hey ho!

 

Yes, fuel is an important factor to consider when buying any vehicle and I'm glad to see you're trying to take into account the total cost of ownership. However, I fear you may be over-estimating the importance of fuel.. Owning tracked armour is not a cheap hobby regardless of what your fuel consumption figures are.

 

For example, I sold my 432 (which I was running on FREE fuel at probably half the fuel consumption of a CVRT) to buy a CVRT. I did this because the CVRT is more practical to own in general than the 432 despite the increased fuel costs. It is easier to work on, it fits in my garage saving me storage fees, it's easier and cheaper to transport so overall owning a CVRT actually saves me money over a 432. Of course, maybe these factors are irrelevant to you, I don't know...

 

"Well, I suppose a pretty one-sided discussion shouldn't surprise me on a UK based site.."

 

Personally, I think that's a pretty unhelpful comment. People took their time to give you advice and opinions, which you asked for. Yes, CVRT's are popular over here, for the reasons I and others have listed above... it's one of the reasons they sell for twice what 432's do. I got plenty of smiles in my 432, but the CVRT is even better... Yes, they have their issues and pros and cons, but so does any type of tracked armour. Personally I'd love a Chieftain and I have access to a place to store and use one... But it's not the fuel costs that put me off buying one, it's the idea of the repair bills that scare me!

 

Horses for courses...

 

James

 

As a local emergency responder driving to town it isn't as sinister as perhaps it could have been taken, more along the lines of an emergency response tool should our suburban not cut it.

 

Sorry, I had no wish to offend. Mostly I was suggesting there was more regional expertise related to UK vehicles on a UK forum. If I were looking for information on an M114 a US site would have been a likely place to request information, for instance. If there were any jab it was meant in jest to provoke any lurkers with foreign armor to step up with more information in defense of the under-represented.

 

As to cost, I did have a M35 that I used as a daily driver for a few years. Rounding out the $2000 in motor vehicle fees and insurance every year was the 3MPG fuel consumption so I'm hoping small armor won't be much worse.

 

thanks,

P_

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...