Help ID Cylinder Head , WW1 Radial Aircraft Engine ???

[secondshooter]

[secondshooter]

[secondshooter]

 

any ideas what the little insert is between the fins?

[Redherring]

That cylinder is a remarkable survivor. But I have to say I quite like to idea of preserving it as a bell! :embarrassed:

[secondshooter]

There is more of the bell story , it was the bell at the RNZEME 164 club at Trentham camp in the 1960s (164 is the number on the tag that goes on anything needing base overhaul ) the bell was stolen by an ordinance store man who later had a marriage break , his disgruntled wife bought the bell to my mate who was the PWF at the time and told him her husband had stolen it. by then a new bell had been sourced and nobody wanted the rusty old one so my mate took it home , years later he gave it to me as I have a collection of rusty old stuff. and here we are now.

Im ex RNZEME , (the corps has since been disbanded and tradesmen are now part of a wider service corps) and am more of a custodian than an owner , will hand it on to some one else from RNZEME when the time is right.

[RAFMT]

Some of the later Gnome Mono engines used two "ignition plugs" per cylinder, usually seen at 90 degrees to the cylinder, but as they were made by a multitude of manufacturers it could just be down to that.

As an aside, it was widely recognised by those that used the things, that the Monos built by British manufacturers were of vastly superior quality than the French built ones. One diary I've read - by a chap who later rose to Air Vice Marshal rank - complains about the output of his French engine (he was getting far less than the 100hp advertised) and had even changed it 3 times and was wistfully dreaming of being able to use a British made Mono.

[GeePig]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]88702[/ATTACH] any ideas what the little insert is between the fins?

 

I was wondering about that as well. Was it to mount part of the valve operating mechanism.

 

The large bore, the twin 45 degree plugs and those raised 'pins' are all different to anything I can find. I assume those pins are for a special tool to extract the valve seat plug - which is usually threaded into the head, although on other engines there are slots around the outer circumference of the plug for the special tool.

 

trevor

[secondshooter]

You are right Trevor , it looks as if the valve seat plug can screw out , I was wondering if the little plug thing was for a temp probe attachment? although the mechanics of connecting it back to a gauge would be a nightmare so not really practical.

is it possible we are barking up the wrong tree and it not off a radial? a fixed inline engine could have been built with a valve in the piston and still have just one exhaust valve perhaps ????

[GeePig]

is it possible we are barking up the wrong tree and it not off a radial? a fixed inline engine could have been built with a valve in the piston and still have just one exhaust valve perhaps ????

 

I was wondering that too. I have looked at lots of pictures of different kinds of engine that I never knew existed...

 

I also discovered that 138mm is 5.2 inches, the same bore as a Merlin.

 

trevor

Edited March 21, 2014 by GeePig

[mtskull]

is it possible we are barking up the wrong tree and it not off a radial? a fixed inline engine could have been built with a valve in the piston and still have just one exhaust valve perhaps ????

Possible, but the whole and entire point of using either the "inlet valve in piston" or the monosoupape arrangement was as a solution to the problems of fuel/air induction which exist in Rotary (not Radial) engines.

These problems don't exist in more conventional engines, so there would be no reason to put up with the inherent limitations and inefficiencies.

 

I did wonder whether the cylinder might have been from a Gnom stationary engine, distant ancestor of the Gnome Rotary, but when I eventually found a photo, there was no resemblance at all.

 

Just to try to match another aspect of the cylinder's specification, please could you tell us its weight?

[GeePig]

I think I might have tracked down some of the features we see on our cylinder on the German-made Goebel Goe III, from 1916, but I cannot yet find the bore dimensions.

 

Look at the dimples around the valve unit, as opposed to the slots seen on the Le-rhone, and the position of the spark plug:

 

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Goebel_Goe_III_01.jpg

 

And here you can make out the 2 spark plug locations:

 

http://www.bredow-web.de/Triebwerke_und_Flugzeugmotore/Goebel_Goe_III%20-%20Umlaufmotor/Goebel_Goe_III_-_Umlaufmotor.html

 

trevor

Edited April 16, 2014 by GeePig
better link

[secondshooter]

Geepig you have hit the nail on the head ! I was convinced it was an Allied engine but the links you provided even show that odd little insert between the fins (still don't know what its for ?) thanks so much for all your efforts , out of interest how long did you spend trawling through old aircraft engine photos?

[GeePig]

It was a pleasure, and I learnt so much on the way. After spending several hours, on and off, looking at such engines, it was a chance link on this forum that led to the solution - someone put a Youtube link of a Fokker triplane, stating that it had a Le-rhone engine. I thought that sounded a bit unlikely, so I checked the Fokker wiki page, and found an engine type listed that I had not seen before, the Goebel Goe.

 

Now, the only problem is that the wisdom of those who have checked the records state that this engine was only fitted to a few test aircraft in 1918, but there is some photographic evidence of a Fokker Dr.I with a cowling modified to suit the Goebel Goe in use on active service. Another possibility is that the cylinder was liberated from a bomb damaged museum of flight in Berlin in 1945.

 

 

trevor

[secondshooter]

Well New Zealander Soldiers have a long history of looting anything that was not bolted down of too heavy to carry so I wont discount any theory? although I would have thought things of monetary value would be higher on the list (or at least things that could be readily exchanged for cash) back in 1945 an old cylinder head would have been a slow moving item compared to art , booze or jewellery.

if only small numbers were made it may be a little easier to track its origins ? I better start doing some more scouring on the internet. I think its time to move the door bell inside and keep it safe.

[GeePig]

Maybe inside is better - I never realized that it might be such a rare engine. :shocked:

 

However, take a look at this, at a Turin museum:

 

http://www.aircraftengine.cz/Torino/#Goebel%20Goe%20III%20%281%29.jpg

 

That little bracket thing appears to be for the support for the spark plug wire!

 

trevor