secondshooter Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 Hi Folks , this has been my door bell for years and I was told it was a Stuart tank Cylinder Head from the person who gave it to me. never gave it much though apart from being a cool door bell. was looking at Stuart engines the other day and it is not one? after a bit of googling it looks more like something found on WW1 radial aircraft engines , bore is approx. 138mm height (less rocker mounting) is approx. 265mm. it appears to be turned from one billet of steel , has been modified at the top to be hung up (possibly why is still around ) so disregard that top loop. Any body know anything about these old engines? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secondshooter Posted March 15, 2014 Author Share Posted March 15, 2014 more pics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secondshooter Posted March 15, 2014 Author Share Posted March 15, 2014 Only clever enough to do one picture per page? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtskull Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 Hi Folks , this has been my door bell for years and I was told it was a Stuart tank Cylinder Head from the person who gave it to me. never gave it much though apart from being a cool door bell. was looking at Stuart engines the other day and it is not one? after a bit of googling it looks more like something found on WW1 radial aircraft engines , bore is approx. 138mm height (less rocker mounting) is approx. 265mm. it appears to be turned from one billet of steel , has been modified at the top to be hung up (possibly why is still around ) so disregard that top loop. Any body know anything about these old engines?[ATTACH=CONFIG]88513[/ATTACH] Pretty sure that is a cylinder from an early Gnome monosoupape rotary engine. Look up "Gnome Monosoupape" on Wikipedia; it tells you everything that you want to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secondshooter Posted March 16, 2014 Author Share Posted March 16, 2014 Thanks mtskull , looked it up , its very similar but the plugs are coming off at a right angle to the bore and the rocker brackets are slightly different ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtskull Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Thanks mtskull , looked it up , its very similar but the plugs are coming off at a right angle to the bore and the rocker brackets are slightly different ?[ATTACH=CONFIG]88545[/ATTACH] I have to say that, having searched many images on the web, I can't find one that completely matches yours either, but bear in mind that there were likely to have been a number of variations during the engine's production life, especially as it was also built under license by other manufacturers. The shape of the cylinder and even the number of fins match the Gnome almost exactly, so my money is still on that. Do you have a photo showing the underside and inside of the cylinder? The arrangement of the transfer ports in the lower part of the cylinder, as well as the bore dimension, might shed some more light on its identity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pzkpfw-e Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Drop The Shuttleworth Collection a line. If anyone in the UK knows, it'll be them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secondshooter Posted March 18, 2014 Author Share Posted March 18, 2014 Here are some more photos , havnt got the ringer out as its corroded in , have put some oil on and will have another try tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secondshooter Posted March 18, 2014 Author Share Posted March 18, 2014 more photos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secondshooter Posted March 18, 2014 Author Share Posted March 18, 2014 Bore diameter is approx. 138mm length of cylinder (less rocker bracket) is approx 265mm ) 17 holes around lower cylinder ranging from 8mm to 3mm in diameter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secondshooter Posted March 18, 2014 Author Share Posted March 18, 2014 Last one . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtskull Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 (edited) There's a drawing of a Gnome cylinder cross-section here: http://www.pilotfriend.com/aero_engines/aero_soupape.htm and a photo here: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/40/Gnome_Omega_OW.jpg Again, they differ from yours in some details but they demonstrate that the spark plug holes in some engines were angled at about 45 degrees. Edited March 18, 2014 by mtskull Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeePig Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 An intriguing aspect is the angled location of the spark plug holes, and I feel that understanding those might be a key to solving the mystery. Just about all the images I see of similar barrels have the spark plugs at 90 degrees to the centreline of the barrel, but they also appear to be rotary engines where the barrels rotate around the fixed crankshaft. Was there a risk that the leads might come off the plugs at high speeds if they were not mounted at 90 degrees? The 138mm bore is interesting too, much larger than most of the rotary engines I have been looking at. trevor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtskull Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 (edited) Here are some more photos , havnt got the ringer out as its corroded in , have put some oil on and will have another try tomorrow.[ATTACH=CONFIG]88618[/ATTACH] Those holes would possibly correspond to the transfer ports as shown in this drawing: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8f/Gnome_Monosoupape_fig1_cylinder.jpg That could only work, however if there had once been a further portion of cylinder below the ports, otherwise the piston would have to come entirely out of the cylinder in order to uncover them. This would make for an unusually tall cylinder and an exceedingly long stroke, so I would be inclined to believe that they served another purpose. Edited March 18, 2014 by mtskull Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeePig Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 I did wonder whether there was some kind of sleeve valve? However, is the ringer made from the actual valve from the top of the barrel? Would it be possible to take a picture of the other side of the barrel, where the port is? trevor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtskull Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 (edited) Let's recap what we know for certain, in that we are looking at a cylinder that has the following characteristics: a) A single port at the top of the cylinder and a bracket which is consistent with a rocker arm support. b) Two threaded holes, consistent with spark plug holes, inclined at approx 45deg. c) A row of holes at the bottom of the cylinder d) Bore 138mm, length of cylinder 265mm e) 20 fins, increasing in diameter from the base and decreasing again near the top f) The cylinder appears to have been machined from solid I believe that we can say for certain that you have a cylinder from a rotary aero engine of single valve ("monosoupape") design. As for the date, the fact that this type of engine became obsolete around the end of WW1 places it firmly in that era. The holes in the base are a tantalising clue; if we accept that they are transfer ports, then the engine is a true "monosoupape" and therefore post-1913; if these holes are not actually transfer ports, the the engine must have been of the "inlet valve in piston" type, which dates it to very early WW1 era, or even pre-war, although there was probably a period of overlap when both types were being produced. As for the maker, that is more difficult. Let us consider the known features: a) is consistent with known illustrations of Gnome engines b) is, I believe, inconclusive. I have seen illustrations of Gnome engines with single and with twin spark plug arrangements and also with the plugs set at 90 deg. and at 45 deg. I haven't found reference to an engine with twin plugs set at 45 deg, but that isn't to say they didn't exist. c) is inconclusive unless it can be determined whether or not they are, in fact transfer ports. Gnome specification suggests that there should be 36. How many are there on this cylinder? d) is inconclusive in determining the stroke, however the bore does not match any specification for Gnome engines that I can find. e) exactly matches some Gnome engines f) was a method of manufacture pioneered by Gnome and almost unique in its day, however as it follows that licence builders and copyists would have employed the same method, it must be regarded as inconclusive. There is some evidence pointing to this being a Gnome; the company introduced this type of engine but given that it was then widely licence built and/or copied by other manufacturers (who in all probability introduced modifications and variants of their own), the exact manufacturer will probably remain a mystery. That said, what a cracking piece of history to own! :-) Edited March 18, 2014 by mtskull Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secondshooter Posted March 19, 2014 Author Share Posted March 19, 2014 Thanks for your input guys , I have learnt an awful lot more about these engines over the last few days , the link to the sectioned drawings explained a lot. im guessing the holes at the base of the cylinder are for introducing some of that caster oil mixture onto the rings , an unusual wave pattern and the differing hole sizes, perhaps to introduce more oil to the side of the bore that wears the most? twin plugs look to feature on later engines , transfer ports superseded the piston valve set up . almost like it has very early features and very late features from the rotary engine? if you need any more photos I will have time tomorrow to take a few , the ringer is not part of the old valve as far as I can tell. another question is how did it get to New Zealand ? the old guy who gave it to me also had another story about WW1 German aircraft being buried under what is now tennis court. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeePig Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Same here, I have learnt a lot And another 'buried aircraft' story - I love those, but it makes one wonder if barrel and the buried aircraft are related. As to the twin spark plug locations - we may one day find a definitive picture, or suddenly understand what it is we are looking at. trevor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redherring Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 the old guy who gave it to me also had another story about WW1 German aircraft being buried under what is now tennis court... I can relate to that having had a similar experience. I am reliably told that an assortment of veteran trucks in a wrecker's yard was bulldozed into a gully in the depression and covered over with several feet of soil. The land is now a small council park. Wonder if Sir Tony Robinson would lend us his ground penetrating radar? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeePig Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 another question is how did it get to New Zealand ? Perhaps it is part of the Avro 504K that crashed in 1920? The 504K were fitted with a number of different engines, one being the Rhone monosoupape. http://www.pukeariki.com/Research/Taranaki-Research-Centre/Taranaki-Stories/Taranaki-Story/id/413/title/first-flight-first-crash-new-plymouth-goes-down-in-aviation-history Trevor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAFMT Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 I believe what you have there comes from a Gnome engine You'll have to forgive the quality as I had to use the photocopier at work to scan them in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeePig Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 (edited) Lovely diagram, that is one of the ones we were thinking off. It is just the rather large bore and alleged twin spark plugs that we need to confirm it. 1908 - that's a date even earlier than I had considered. trevor ps: see this for some nice cutaway engine shots: http://www.aircraftengine.cz/Alverca/# Edited March 19, 2014 by GeePig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secondshooter Posted March 19, 2014 Author Share Posted March 19, 2014 Got this from a mate who has been involved with vintage aircraft. that's a 50hp gnomemonosaupe cylinder first manufactured 1908 . Wigram had one fitted to a caudronbiplane in ww1 I think a few went in bleriot types there too. Monosaupe meansone valve... we are getting close perhaps there already ? its just the twin plugs to sort out . I have removed the ringer and will take some more photos shortly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secondshooter Posted March 19, 2014 Author Share Posted March 19, 2014 more pictures Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secondshooter Posted March 19, 2014 Author Share Posted March 19, 2014 Some more dimensions Fins at widest point 175mm Wall thickness 50mm up from base 1.95mm (paint and rust included) Valve stem hole 12.29mm Valve opening 59mm Plug hole diameter 16.25mm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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