question it came out of a Saracen....

[Cold_War_Collection]

...out of our MK 6 ....

 

 

Any ideas on what, and where this goes?

 

many thanks

 

Nick

 

CWC Canada

[Richard Farrant]

I think that is a Centurion booster coil that was used to repel rioters with a shock.

[fv1609]

Interestingly the EMER was issued in Oct 1968 pre-dating Op Banner by about 10 months.

[andyroo]

Hi,

I have one in my Mk6 Saracen and also Saladin. It is NOT, I repeat not for giving electric shocks.

It dose give out a high voltage though. Its conected via a HT cable though the hull to a chain on a

bracket. When wading, it sounds a buzzer when you get to the maximum depth you can go without preparing the

vehicle when the water touches the chain. I've tested mine on the Saladin and can confirm it works.

Photo of the bracket and chain. The chain is suspended from a pin that's mounted in a rubber bush to insulate it from the hull.

 

Andy

[fv1609]

Hi,

I have one in my Mk6 Saracen and also Saladin. It is NOT, I repeat not for giving electric shocks.

It dose give out a high voltage though. Its conected via a HT cable though the hull to a chain on a

bracket. When wading, it sounds a buzzer when you get to the maximum depth you can go without preparing the

vehicle when the water touches the chain. I've tested mine on the Saladin and can confirm it works.

Photo of the bracket and chain. The chain is suspended from a pin that's mounted in a rubber bush to insulate it from the hull.

 

Andy

 

Andy that's an interesting application for the mod. But surely your water detecting chain is just the earthing chain that should be trailing on the ground before some of it snapped off?

 

The EMER applied to "Saracen APC, Saladin AC, Ferret SC, All Marks. Electrification for internal security duties. Installation Instruction No.1 Oct 1968"

[Richard Farrant]

Andy that's an interesting application for the mod. But surely your water detecting chain is just the earthing chain that should be trailing on the ground before some of it snapped off?

 

The EMER applied to "Saracen APC, Saladin AC, Ferret SC, All Marks. Electrification for internal security duties. Installation Instruction No.1 Oct 1968"

 

 

Also fitted to Humber Pig for IS duties !

[fv1609]

Yes indeed Richard & also Land Rover Installation Instruction N0.15 June 1972. Below here it is in action on Saracen.

 

[robin craig]

Nick,

 

What a shocking discovery!

 

I would refit it and complete the install before heading over to Vanier.

 

Would make a great idea to have it active if travel over the Ottawa river.

 

Brilliant

 

R

[Cold_War_Collection]

Nick,

 

What a shocking discovery!

 

I would refit it and complete the install before heading over to Vanier.

 

Would make a great idea to have it active if travel over the Ottawa river.

 

Brilliant

 

R

 

true!

 

and it would solve the probem of nosey folks at MV shows....just imagine, "hey, don't let your kids climb on that...ZAP...oh....too late"

[Cold_War_Collection]

Wow.

 

I would have never guessed that was the application, anyone know where inside the hull the control was mounted in the Saracen?

 

(it was in a box of parts, taken off in the long past)

 

cheers

 

Nick

[andyroo]

Andy that's an interesting application for the mod. But surely your water detecting chain is just the earthing chain that should be trailing on the ground before some of it snapped off?

"

 

Clive,

 

The position of the bracket, on the side of the hull between the front and center wheel would not be a good place for a chain

running along the road. First corner and the chain could be under the center wheel.

The Saracen hull shocker had the chain dangling from under the hull and in the center of the vhieacal.

Also, although the unit in question gives a HT voltage, its one I can touch so is less than one required for a spark plug.

Another question is why would it need to buzz if its for a hull shocker? In fact, it doesn't look to me in any way like a coil

for use in an ignition system.

Having taken my Saladin in some deep water (approx 24" deep) I know it works. When switched on, it

buzzes when the chain contacts water.

 

Andy

[Cold_War_Collection]

Picure of Chain and fitting. The Chain is approx 8 inches from the floor (although wheels are removed, hull is at the right height). there is a hole in the hull for a cable above the fitting, and the chain mounting bolt is secured in a rubber mount, to isolate from the hull bracket.

 

cheers

 

Nick

[Adrian Barrell]

Clive,

Another question is why would it need to buzz if its for a hull shocker? In fact, it doesn't look to me in any way like a coil

for use in an ignition system.

Andy

 

It very definately is a Centurion booster coil which buzzes when in use. It's not for coil ignition systems and is only activated when the starter button is pushed in and gives a boost to one of the magnetos.

[fv1609]

Andy it is indeed an ignition booster coil. It seemed to lend itself well to vehicle electrification projects. You can see an identical one fitted to this Rover.

 

 

The part is identified as LV6MT8/2920-99-806-4049 cross relating it to VAOS it comes up as LV6MT8/THC2TS4

 

So Nick can you see the maker's part number on it ie C2TS4?

 

It seems not to have had a FV number as I assume it was an off the shelf component. The maker was not Lucas but British Thompson Houston Ltd

 

The booster coil delivers 13kV how this is felt on the human body all depends on surface resistance of the skin (sweaty or dry) and the footwear (damp leather soled shoes or rubber boots). So in a wet environment going over these puddles the standing on the ground the touching the vehicle could be fatal.

 

13kV may not be fatal as such but the current that flows is the significant factor, which of course depends on the resistance presented. Vehicles Branch Technical Group REME produced these figures. So depending on load resistance the current in milliamps (one thousandth of an amp)

 

1-8 Perceptible shock

8-15 Painful

20-50 Respiratory inhibition

100-200 Ventricular fibrillation

200 Severe burns

 

Descriptions of the workings of the booster coil remain elusive. It clearly is not a simple transformer as you cannot “transform” DC. The alternative electrification system used a normal ignition coil switched by a vibrator of the type that was widely used in WW2 radios.

 

The booster coil is quoted as having a turns ratio of 250:10,000 it must have some switching/pulsing system to drive it. It must be electromechanical; I have not idea if it is a rotary system or a relay switching. I suspect it is the later.

 

I would envisage that this is an autotransformer such that the 250 (primary) winding is in series (& in phase) with the 10,000 turns of the secondary but with the primary energising relay contacts. So that on switch on the circuit is completed the iron core within these windings builds up magnetism, in so doing the relay contacts open so that the magnetic field collapses & 13kV flows out of the secondary.

 

Once this happens the relay contacts close again switching the thing on & charging up & so on. From my own experiments with a coil testing machine working on a similar principle the load presented has an effect with impedance (there are all the inductive effects & the capacitive effects of load plus the basic resistive load) this is all reflected back into the coil so that the load will change the frequency so that the relay buzz become more obviously audible.

 

It’s a pity you aren’t closer Andy as it would be fun to take some measurements. Ah well there is always W&P.:-D

 

Incidentally the idea of using a Centurion booster coil in this way I believe was first tried in Palestine by the EME of an Airborne Workshop who explained to me how he dreamt up the idea.

[Richard Farrant]

 

The part is identified as LV6MT8/2920-99-806-4049 cross relating it to VAOS it comes up as LV6MT8/THC2TS4

 

So Nick can you see the maker's part number on it ie C2TS4?

 

It seems not to have had a FV number as I assume it was an off the shelf component. The maker was not Lucas but British Thompson Houston Ltd.

 

 

Clive,

The booster coil predates Centurion as it was fitted to the wartime Meteor engine tanks so maybe why it never had a FV number.

 

Ah well, depth of water gauge, that is another urban myth laid to rest

[fv1609]

The booster coil predates Centurion as it was fitted to the wartime Meteor engine tanks so maybe why it never had a FV number.

 

That would explain that Richard I nothing about tanks.

 

In the days when it was very difficult to buy ex-MOD armour. I know when the first Ferrets came into the UK they were ex-Hong Kong Police & they were fitted with electrification. The earthing chain was fitted to the readily available drain plug. Are there drain plugs in Saracens & do they match in with the positions that Andy & Nick have observed?

[Richard Farrant]

The earthing chain was fitted to the readily available drain plug. Are there drain plugs in Saracens & do they match in with the positions that Andy & Nick have observed?

 

There are numerous drain and access plates under the hull and it would be easy to utilise one where it had space above it to get a cable to. These other brackets show were probably added on rework as it removes the danger of damage if the vehicle belly fouled an object, also easier to replace the chain on wearing to.

[Cold_War_Collection]

Andy it is indeed an ignition booster coil. It seemed to lend itself well to vehicle electrification projects. You can see an identical one fitted to this Rover.

 

 

The part is identified as LV6MT8/2920-99-806-4049 cross relating it to VAOS it comes up as LV6MT8/THC2TS4

 

So Nick can you see the maker's part number on it ie C2TS4?

 

It seems not to have had a FV number as I assume it was an off the shelf component. The maker was not Lucas but British Thompson Houston Ltd

 

The booster coil delivers 13kV how this is felt on the human body all depends on surface resistance of the skin (sweaty or dry) and the footwear (damp leather soled shoes or rubber boots). So in a wet environment going over these puddles the standing on the ground the touching the vehicle could be fatal.

 

13kV may not be fatal as such but the current that flows is the significant factor, which of course depends on the resistance presented. Vehicles Branch Technical Group REME produced these figures. So depending on load resistance the current in milliamps (one thousandth of an amp)

 

1-8 Perceptible shock

8-15 Painful

20-50 Respiratory inhibition

100-200 Ventricular fibrillation

200 Severe burns

 

Descriptions of the workings of the booster coil remain elusive. It clearly is not a simple transformer as you cannot “transform” DC. The alternative electrification system used a normal ignition coil switched by a vibrator of the type that was widely used in WW2 radios.

 

The booster coil is quoted as having a turns ratio of 250:10,000 it must have some switching/pulsing system to drive it. It must be electromechanical; I have not idea if it is a rotary system or a relay switching. I suspect it is the later.

 

I would envisage that this is an autotransformer such that the 250 (primary) winding is in series (& in phase) with the 10,000 turns of the secondary but with the primary energising relay contacts. So that on switch on the circuit is completed the iron core within these windings builds up magnetism, in so doing the relay contacts open so that the magnetic field collapses & 13kV flows out of the secondary.

 

Once this happens the relay contacts close again switching the thing on & charging up & so on. From my own experiments with a coil testing machine working on a similar principle the load presented has an effect with impedance (there are all the inductive effects & the capacitive effects of load plus the basic resistive load) this is all reflected back into the coil so that the load will change the frequency so that the relay buzz become more obviously audible.

 

It’s a pity you aren’t closer Andy as it would be fun to take some measurements. Ah well there is always W&P.:-D

 

Incidentally the idea of using a Centurion booster coil in this way I believe was first tried in Palestine by the EME of an Airborne Workshop who explained to me how he dreamt up the idea.

 

Hello Clive

 

here is a picture of the makers mark, and the serial number is as follows;

 

TYPE C2TS/4 24 VOLT No. 2355 and the unit is 4 inches long, and 2 1/2 inches in dia. the "tower" where the lead screws in is 1 1/2 inches high, and is attached by 6 round head slot screws

 

many thanks for the feedback

 

Cheers, and happy new year!

 

Nick

[fv1609]

Nick confirmation indeed C2TS4 and the BTH logo :-D

 

Are you going to try it out? One N.Ireland veteran I was talking to described how he was stood near his vehicle & he hadn't realised the thing had been turned on. The end of his rifle touched the vehicle he heard a hell of a crack & he felt a hell of a shock. Later he noticed a small arc weld mark on the end of his rifle.

 

So rubber boots & non-sweaty hands then!

[Cold_War_Collection]

Nick confirmation indeed C2TS4 and the BTH logo :-D

 

Are you going to try it out? One N.Ireland veteran I was talking to described how he was stood near his vehicle & he hadn't realised the thing had been turned on. The end of his rifle touched the vehicle he heard a hell of a crack & he felt a hell of a shock. Later he noticed a small arc weld mark on the end of his rifle.

 

So rubber boots & non-sweaty hands then!

 

Might have it "on" at MV shows....keeps the kids off :-)

[Richard Farrant]

Might have it "on" at MV shows....keeps the kids off :-)

 

It will certainly give the dogs a surprise when the check out the wheels ... like they do

[Cold_War_Collection]

happy new year, and thanks to all who chimed in on this interesting and unexpected part of the restoration.

 

here is the refinished part, about to go in the hull. loction of this is on the drivers right, on the ceiling above the forward firing port.

 

 

cheers

 

Nick

 

CWC Canada

[fv1609]

Nick provided you rig things up carefully & use pointed electrodes for maximum spark length I expect you could get about an inch spark.

 

I got this from a standard ignition coil recently. I could get a bit more but it started to get a bit inconsistent.

 

[robin craig]

Nick,

 

what brand and specific colour are you using for the silver interior finish of the Shocking Sadcan? Is it an off the shelf product or did you have some elves in a secret location make it for you?

 

Could you post a shot of the can itself if is off the shelf?

 

Thanks

 

R

[Cold_War_Collection]

Nick,

 

what brand and specific colour are you using for the silver interior finish of the Shocking Sadcan? Is it an off the shelf product or did you have some elves in a secret location make it for you?

 

Could you post a shot of the can itself if is off the shelf?

 

Thanks

 

R

 

We have a local supplier, Co-Auto, mixing it for us, I'll pop over to the body shop and see if I can find a can to take a picture of. The colour was scanned on an original non-faded interior panel, so it should be quite close. I'm sure we have the mixing codes as well, so I will ask about that too

 

Cheers

 

Nick

 

ps, I'll be up at Denholm Sunday working on the 206 if you are in the area!

[robin craig]

Nick,

 

The codes to make it would be great please.

 

Technically im not back to work until Monday so wont be anywhere near your BV 206, still got problems?

 

R