Enfield1940 Posted November 6, 2013 Share Posted November 6, 2013 Interesting goings on in Worcestershire... "...some of the deactivated weapons we sell are from mainland Europe. They carry their original European deactivation marks and documentation and are then checked over by us and we issue our own certificate and apply our marks after any additional work has been carried out to ensure they are UK-legal and as such this type of de-activated weapon does NOT require the UK proof marks. We have had our procedures and the original documentation for the relevant type of deact viewed by one of the UK Proof Masters under the auspices of a very nice man from the Home Office and he has concluded that the stock of weapons we had of those types of weapons examined at that time "were deactivated to a sufficiently robust standard as for them to be considered acceptable in the UK" (quoted from his correspondence with us). We are trying now to ensure that every new type of imported deact we stock has the same overview. So you can buy the European-sourced deacts as well as the UK-sourced deacts we offer for sale safe in the knowledge that they are legal in the UK and still have working parts that move and can be field-stripped as per the live version. Sort of pre-95 spec, but in 2013!" http://shop.tenburyguns.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=10316 Further discussion here: http://www.gunstar.co.uk/forum/french-deactivated-mat49-t1250.html It'll be interesting to see if this is a one off or whether other UK dealers will do the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfy Posted November 6, 2013 Share Posted November 6, 2013 I read that last week and thought it sounded a bit odd but maybe it means lower priced items at better prices coming in?....probably very unlikely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
griff66 Posted November 6, 2013 Share Posted November 6, 2013 think i would be cautious about owning one :undecided: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted November 6, 2013 Share Posted November 6, 2013 (edited) I bought an Uzi from them a few weeks ago, and promptly sent it back. No German stamps or paperwork with it, just a "Certificate" of deactivation from the dealer. On the said "Certificate" it listed what had been done to deac' it (Which included having the barrel welded to the receiver, and also the trigger group "Fixed" to the receiver.). I promptly unscrewed the barrel nut and popped the barrel off, and pulled the strip pin to drop the trigger group out. Sending it back saved me a court appearance, or a lot of explaining to the Police, in my humble opinion. Edited November 6, 2013 by Pete Added Photo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted November 6, 2013 Share Posted November 6, 2013 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
griff66 Posted November 6, 2013 Share Posted November 6, 2013 kinn ell! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
griff66 Posted November 6, 2013 Share Posted November 6, 2013 kinn ell! what a useless bit of paper that so called deac cert is talk about get out clauses for them ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted November 6, 2013 Share Posted November 6, 2013 As a fellow forum member said to me when I sent him the pic' of the "Certificate", "I could have done better with my childhood John Bull printing set.". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singaeger Posted November 6, 2013 Share Posted November 6, 2013 Reading the letter im not entirely sure they have actuallyinspected the item. They appear to be saying that it conforms to a deact standard but may notcomply with the the UK standard. It is interesting that they say A PROOFMASTER has said that it complies with aHome office standard... This is not the same as saying the THEY say it complieswith a home office standard. then covering themselves by listing what it should comply with.....which itobviously doesn’t if the broken down gun in the photo is evidence shows what can be done to it, without the use of an anglegrinder etc. You did the right thing to send it back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym Posted November 6, 2013 Share Posted November 6, 2013 Is not the legal proof of deactivation the presence of one of the two authorised UK proof house marks? A certificate is nice but legally inadequate, methinks? Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 Quite simple really, does it carry a London or Birmingham Proof house mark and a certificate issued by the proof house? If not, then it is NOT De-Activated under UK law. Please bear in mind you can own it. I still own my pistols, you may not posses it! So if it's in your house, don't make any plans for the next 10 years. I'd suggest you contact your local Trading Standards office, as they are selling something not as described. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferrettkitt Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 Quite simple really, does it carry a London or Birmingham Proof house mark and a certificate issued by the proof house? If not, then it is NOT De-Activated under UK law. Please bear in mind you can own it. I still own my pistols, you may not posses it! So if it's in your house, don't make any plans for the next 10 years. I'd suggest you contact your local Trading Standards office, as they are selling something not as described. You can bet your bottom dollar that they won't be willing to serve time at HMP's pleasure for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Al Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 Well if there deact to the UK standard whats the problem with the proff house stamping them with the correct markings a print docoment is easly lost, there is no reason why the dealer cannot arrange for it to be done. This would take any questions of complance with UK laws on this subject you after remember the local plod will treat any firearm has real untill proved otherwise just my veiw on it. Al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enfield1940 Posted November 7, 2013 Author Share Posted November 7, 2013 Quite simple really, does it carry a London or Birmingham Proof house mark and a certificate issued by the proof house? If not, then it is NOT De-Activated under UK law. Please bear in mind you can own it. I still own my pistols, you may not posses it! So if it's in your house, don't make any plans for the next 10 years. I'd suggest you contact your local Trading Standards office, as they are selling something not as described. A deactivated firearm is one that "'has been rendered incapable of discharging any shot, bullet or other weapon and has consequently ceased to be a firearm within the meaning of the Act". This means it is possible to have a UK legal deact that hasn't been Proof House certified, but the devil is in the detail and you run the risk of having to establish its status in court. Presumably Tenbury Guns have established - to their own satisfaction at least - that their deacts meet the above definition are are therefore UK legal. They may be technically correct, but obviously their guns aren't going to benefit from the same level of defense against prosecution that a UK certified deact enjoys. It'll be interesting to see how this pans out... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marmite!! Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 Here are the current 2010 UK Deactivation Standards.. deactivation-of-firearms-2010-6.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 In the case of the Uzi that I bought, the dealer sent a man down from Birmingham to pick it up from me in Hertfordshire, with a full cash refund. Maybe it was because I told him that the Police would be picking it up, if he didn't? I thank my lucky stars that I wasn't a "First time buyer" who may not have known what they were getting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Hall Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 Out of interest, has anyone heard of the CIP agreement? Also bare in mind that Tenbury guns have been selling these deacs for the last year. If there was a problem, he wouldn't be trading that's for sure. Although the UK law states definite defence to prosecution etc. etc. we are obliged by the CIP agreement to recognise the member states proof marks. Therefor a deac from a CIP member state must be recognised by the UK, there are thousands of CIP proofed live fire arms in the UK that have not seen a UK proof house so is every dealer and individual who sells one of these a criminal also? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commission_Internationale_Permanente_pour_l'Epreuve_des_Armes_%C3%A0_Feu_Portatives Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.303fan Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 "'has been rendered incapable of discharging any shot, bullet or other weapon and has consequently ceased to be a firearm within the meaning of the Act" That is a interesting bit of text. if a rifle is welded shut (holes in the barrel that are welded too) and welded trigger and bolt so nothing moves,it should be deacts in the letter of the law,but without any proofmarks or letter to go with. I am looking forward to the results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Al Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 I belive there is a standard of deact that the proff house stamp confirms it is deatcted to the correct standard for the UK law. Its not only welding and blocking holes I belive the barrel is slit the firing pin and cocking parts are cut. a good deact you will not be able see it. Al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enfield1940 Posted November 8, 2013 Author Share Posted November 8, 2013 Out of interest, has anyone heard of the CIP agreement? Also bare in mind that Tenbury guns have been selling these deacs for the last year. If there was a problem, he wouldn't be trading that's for sure. Although the UK law states definite defence to prosecution etc. etc. we are obliged by the CIP agreement to recognise the member states proof marks. Therefor a deac from a CIP member state must be recognised by the UK, there are thousands of CIP proofed live fire arms in the UK that have not seen a UK proof house so is every dealer and individual who sells one of these a criminal also? True. But does that mutual recognition also explicitly apply to deacts? Proofing a live firearm is a fairly homogeneous process, whereas each country has its own ideas as to what constitutes deactivation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enfield1940 Posted November 8, 2013 Author Share Posted November 8, 2013 if a rifle is welded shut (holes in the barrel that are welded too) and welded trigger and bolt so nothing moves,it should be deacts in the letter of the law,but without any proofmarks or letter to go with. That may fall within the UK definition of a deact, but as mentioned, without formal certification you run the risk of having to establish this in court. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.303fan Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 I can get a letter from the dutch police to state they are dutch standard deacts, if my friend can mill the barrel out and weld a rod in place it should do. Bolt is fused to the rifle so its permanent deact that way. I might want to know what is needed for a certivicate to own a .38 as blank fire gun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Hall Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 True. But does that mutual recognition also explicitly apply to deacts? Proofing a live firearm is a fairly homogeneous process, whereas each country has its own ideas as to what constitutes deactivation. It applies to all basic standards applied by the proof houses of the CIP members regardless of what they refer to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
griff66 Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 with the minimal price saving compared to uk spec proof house deac, Why risk it?:nut: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enfield1940 Posted November 8, 2013 Author Share Posted November 8, 2013 I can get a letter from the dutch police to state they are dutch standard deacts,if my friend can mill the barrel out and weld a rod in place it should do. Bolt is fused to the rifle so its permanent deact that way. I might want to know what is needed for a certivicate to own a .38 as blank fire gun. Probably best to discuss it directly with the Birmingham Proof House and see what they'll accept. You may need to get a UK RFD to import it though. What sort sort of blank fire .38 is it? If its a real gun thats been converted, it'll be illegal in the UK. A replica would have to satisfy UK standards on whether it is 'readily convertible'. Then there's the VCR Act... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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