Morris gun tractor history and markings

[Catch 22 LBDR]

HI l have got all the catalogues for the sales from 1945 to January 1947 that l have so between now and the new year l will with a friend go though them and list all the morris quads with two of us we should get though them quickly when done l will post the list to you

 

REGARDS WALLY

 

Fantastic,Do you want my email or home address?

[wally dugan]

home address please pm it thanks

[Runflat]

OK. A slight development on the history front.

 

On the front of the vehicle there was the remnants of a Irish civilian registration number. ZD 317.... Is the best I can make out. I never got a log book with the Quad so it is imposable to know what the number should be. I am involved in a letter writing process with the Irish motor tax division, to try and retrieve a copy using the Chassis number but they are proving to be most unhelpful.

 

Anyway using good old Google I was able to find out some information about the issue of Irish number plates. It turns out that "ZD" was a Dublin prefix and was only used between Jan 1940- Jan 1947. The numbers ran from 1-9999.

 

Philip Riden's book on registrations says that the ZD series records are at the Dublin City Archives. Curiously though he says it was issued between 1927 and 1954. LH Newall's book, however, gives a start date of Jan 1940 but no end date.

[Runflat]

I've just been looking in Karl Martin's book Irish Army Vehicles - it says that 35 Morris Quad Mk II artillery tractors were bought from the UK for £25,000 and delivered in January and March 1942. One of them was registered ZD 3186 - so assuming they were registered in batches there's a good chance your quad was part of the first batch. Me thinks the answer lies in the Irish Republic records. After you've tried the Dublin records as per my previous, try here: http://www.military.ie/info-centre/military-archives/

[Catch 22 LBDR]

I've just been looking in Karl Martin's book Irish Army Vehicles - it says that 35 Morris Quad Mk II artillery tractors were bought from the UK for £25,000 and delivered in January and March 1942. One of them was registered ZD 3186 - so assuming they were registered in batches there's a good chance your quad was part of the first batch. Me thinks the answer lies in the Irish Republic records. After you've tried the Dublin records as per my previous, try here: http://www.military.ie/info-centre/military-archives/

 

I had ruled out the Irish Army because My vehicle was painted Portland stone. It's also MK3 Quad and unlike in the UK the Irish Army use the same type of number plates as are on civilian cars. Nice find though, I think I might fire off an email just to be sure. Thanks

[Runflat]

Certainly worth checking out as the ZD 317? registration sounds like a war-time issue.

 

Is the Portland Stone colour that shown as the background on the disc in your pictures? It looks like it could be the light green/grey the Irish Army used. The preserved Irish Army CDSW gives the idea: http://ccmv.aecsouthall.co.uk/p67648528/h194a02ed#h194a02ed

 

And here:

Edited December 20, 2013 by Runflat

[Ivor Ramsden]

An Irish Army origin might explain why the combined might of HMVF can't identify the vehicle's markings.

 

Have a look here: http://www.irishmilitaryinsignia.com/flash/catagory/army/vehicle%20decals/flash_arm_vehicle_infantry.htm

 

There's a badge bottom left which is yellow and blue, split diagonally. I'm not saying that's the exact one but it's close - a sight closer than any British Army one - and there could be one with a similar background used for artillery. There's an email address on the home page which might be worth contacting.

Edited December 21, 2013 by Ivor Ramsden

[Catch 22 LBDR]

I think you might be onto something there guys. I knew they had some CDSW's (An Irish one turned up in CMV a few month's ago) all the pictures I had seen were all 6x4's and black and white, I had no idea the Irish Army used that sick looking green:shocked:, but it could be the colour on my Quad.

 

This shines a very different light on things. It would be very feasible for the Defence Force to purchase vehicles from the British Army after the war. My quad has a few layers of green followed by what I had thought to be Portland stone. It would also explain the absence of a number on the door/bonnet. I could be under the last coat of paint.

 

I got this of the Irish military insignia page. It is the closest I have seen so far.

 

6 Regt

 

[wally dugan]

IVOR it is the nearest to the one on the bridge plate as l mentioned the white line between the yellow and blue but did

the lrish army get any mk 3 quads and when as up to now the only ones mentioned are the mk 2

[Catch 22 LBDR]

IVOR it is the nearest to the one on the bridge plate as l mentioned the white line between the yellow and blue but did

the lrish army get any mk 3 quads and when as up to now the only ones mentioned are the mk 2

 

I would say they bought a few after the war, perhaps the email I sent to http://www.military.ie/info-centre/military-archives/ will answer a few questions, it might even answer a few for them:cool2:

 

If it turns out to be so, then it might be the only surviving Irish Army Quad!

Edited December 21, 2013 by Catch 22 LBDR

[Runflat]

Here are a couple of pictures from Karl Martin's book. Looking closely, the quads look like Mk IIIs. Note the registration of the quad in the second picture and the weight disc and plate either side of the radiator.

 

The suggestion is these were bought new from Morris Commercial, rather than as British Army war surplus. Checking the 'ZD' vehicle records should give a date.

 

The caption to the second says: Willys CJ3B, ZL1246, of the Artillery Corps leading a convoy of Morris 4x4 Quads towing 25 pdr. field guns and limbers in O'Connell St. circa 1958. The Quad on the right, ZD3177, now forms part of the National Transport Museum's collection thanks to the efforts of Howard Woods.

 

So, yours could be the one on the left! And disposal some time in the late 1950s early 1960s?

 

 

[Richard Farrant]

Irish Army film taken during a wartime exercise, watch through until the end and several C8 FAT's crossing a bridge.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/uc3lqARwL0w

[Catch 22 LBDR]

Some nice finds guys. I called a man in the National Transport Museum. ZD3177 is still in there inventory but it has not bean restored. It is in storage but outside:-(. He said he can arrange for me to have a look at it in the new year. He is also going to send me some pictures of Irish Quads in service. He also confirmed that the military archive's will have all the Reg numbers on file. Result! Just have to wait for them to get back to me, prob after xmass.

[Ivor Ramsden]

Marvellous! I hope you're going to restore it into its Irish colours. Anybody can have a British Army Quad, but Irish ones are a real rarity.

Let us see the photos when they arrive.

[Catch 22 LBDR]

Ivor I was just having that discussion with my dad. I had my heart set on a desert "Caunter" paint work. but now I an a bit devised on what to do. I would have loved my quad to have seen some war time action but on the other hand there may well be some in-service pictures of my quad in action with the Irish Army. What to do:undecided:

[Catch 22 LBDR]

I found this on another web site.

 

[Ivor Ramsden]

Interesting stuff. Go for grey, it will be unique, at least until the National Transport Museum restore theirs. And then buy another which you can finish in the Caunter scheme. :cool2:

[Catch 22 LBDR]

I like the Idea of painting dark Gray on the top and light Gray on the side.

 

Someone on hear is restoring an Irish Jeep.

http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?32059-Restoration-of-Irish-Defence-forces-CJ3B/page3

Edited December 21, 2013 by Catch 22 LBDR

[Catch 22 LBDR]

Right. I have made an appointment to visit the Irish Army Archive on the Wed the 22nd of Jan. Hopeful this will give me the written proof that my Quad is Irish Army. All the deviance is pointing that way so far.

 

I have also researched the colour on the vehicle. Not as easy as yo might think as there was not a standardisation of paints used until 1952. The official colour is Army Grey, this is a green/grey colour. But this varied from unit to unit so its hard to know the correct shade. I used a sample of the original paint still on the vehicle and compared it to the Army Grey colour I found on line and got some samples mixed up. I opted for a slightly darker Green/Grey than was on the vehicle to allow for the sun bleaching effect on the paint.

 

The colour picked is on the left.

 

 

The colour in this picture is a bit off.

Edited January 4, 2014 by Catch 22 LBDR

[Catch 22 LBDR]

Had an interesting day in the Irish Army Archive today.

 

I have confirmed that its reg was ZD 3178.

It is listed as being purchased in 1942 and being struck off on the 23rd of April 1969.

Its Army Number is 1633.

 

She spent the war years in an air-defence Bty and the last of its service life in 6 Field Artillery Regt F.C.A. (reserve). Its unclear when it moved units but there was a major structuring of the Army in 1946.

[Catch 22 LBDR]

This symbol is 6 Field Artillery Regt F.C.A. (reserve)

 

[Catch 22 LBDR]

This symbol is he Gaelic letter "D". Each guns in a Battery were given there own letter. In this case my Quad pulled the 4th gun in one of the Battery's in 6 Field Regt.

[wally dugan]

ROSS l have watched your journey to find the history of your quad with interest from BURMA TO NORH AFRICA then to

your own country and your efforts to uncover its story well done and keep the great job on bringing it back to life

 

REGARDS WALLY

[Peter4456]

Yes, brilliant research! - it's great when the pieces of the jigsaw start coming together and thank goodness you kept those two old plates - how fragile history can be sometimes!

[11th Armoured]

Brilliant work - well done on your perseverance!