question Armed despatch rider?

[agmerlin]

Hi folks,

 

can anyone say if WWII despatch riders would have been armed? If so what with, apart from a dangerous motorcycle:-D

 

Andy

[Tony B]

Normally a pistol, either an Enfeild Number 1 or a Smith & Wesson 38/200 (If anyone calls it the Victory model, Shoot the ***) Some Webley Mk 4 also appeared.

[agmerlin]

Many thanks Tony B

[singaeger]

 

Unknown dispatch rider of the 2nd Household Cav, visiting C squadron, near Hamburg (Marjenle?) 1945.

[Enfield 42]

What a great picture, thanks for sharing it.

[Ron]

And sometimes a Sten gun and even a 303 rifle. (these are Canadians) Ron

[sharky]

was this common

[No Signals]

was this common

 

Only on the front of this magazine

 

Having said that there are other pictures of the same, or similar, arrangements but I believe common consensus is that they were test prototypes and none ever reached front line service. .... Stands back and waits for evidence to the contrary to flood in.

[Ron]

The bike was a Norton Model 18 with the ugly cows udder silencer. Only a handful where ordered by the WO. I reckon the thought of firing a Tommy gun from a stalk on the frame is ridiculous! Another one of those prototype experimental exercises that never made it past a photo opportunity!! Ron

[Pavy8]

Normally a pistol, either an Enfeild Number 1 or a Smith & Wesson 38/200 (If anyone calls it the Victory model, Shoot the ***) Some Webley Mk 4 also appeared.

 

I understood the lend lease version to be the 'Smith & Wesson Model 10' chambered in S&W .38/200. The 200 is referring to the grain of the bullet, the Enfield No.2 Mk.I and Webley Mk.IV were also chambered in the .38/200. The 'victory' nickname came from the V prefix to the serial number.

The US military also used large numbers the Model 10 in WWII only chambered in .38 special instead. The US model 10 was standard issue to Navy and Marine corps pilots, as well as many second line soldiers.

Before WWII the US military had used a much less refined version of the Model 10 under the guise of 'Hand Ejector Model of 1899 (.38 Long Colt)' in the campaign against the Spanish in the Philippines. Reports ere that the .38 long colt was underpowered or military service. A good number of Model 10's, as the more familiar 'Military and Police' were acquired before, during and after the Great War, in the then newish .38 Special. They USUALLY found less interesting uses such as factory guards and the like, but they did make their way around occasionally.

 

I do agree though definitely NOT a 'S&W Victory Model' haha. The whole 'Victory Model' thing confused me as a kid, and I thought some others might want clearing up.

Edited August 30, 2013 by Pavy8
its late here i made poor grammer mistakes haha.

[ferretfixer]

Normally a pistol, either an Enfeild Number 1 or a Smith & Wesson 38/200 (If anyone calls it the Victory model, Shoot the ***) Some Webley Mk 4 also appeared.

 

For 'Pistol'. Read = REVOLVER. Just being pedantic Tony! HOWEVER, the CORRECT ACTUAL Terminology is: Pistol, Revolver!.......Make sense of that if you can? A revolver is just that. A PISTOL is a Semi-Automatic Hand held smallarm. See Me after class young Man!

[Tony B]

I have to admit you are perfectley correct sir! :-D I wince when people call self loaders 'Automatics'.

[ferretfixer]

I have to admit you are perfectly correct sir! :-D I wince when people call self loaders 'Automatics'.

 

Isn't an Automatic, a system of car transmission?..........................:cool2:

[POPPY]

Hi Andy,

 

I can see you have had a lot of helpful info on your question, but to reassure you a little more.....

 

My late friend Les (3rd Infantry Division Royal Signals) was a radio operator who landed on D-Day with Montgomery's wireless operator.

 

He double hatted as a Don R (Despatch Rider) through Normandy and up into Bremen (Germany) on a good old BSA M20:-)

 

His personal weapon was a Sten gun!

 

Hope this was of use.

 

Rgds

 

Mark

[cmp]

Thought I'd just add this picture here, this is a family member, picture taken in Normandy at the HQ in Cully shortly after the landings. Soldier in question belonged to 24th Lancers, in this picture armed with both a revolver and a Sten.

[Lauren Child]

Wasn't it the Sten gun that would go off if hit with a shock? I'm sure I heard a story about that.

 

If so I'd be rather worried about coming off the bike. It must have be quite hair raising carrying one through difficult roads/terrain on two wheels.

[wyvern rider]

I'm guessing that the 'safety' would be on to stop the receiver springing back unless the sten was going to be used.

 

Mike

[agmerlin]

Hello everyone,

 

thanks for all the advice! Some brill photos as well, keep em coming please

 

andy

[Tony B]

Wasn't it the Sten gun that would go off if hit with a shock? I'm sure I heard a story about that.

 

If so I'd be rather worried about coming off the bike. It must have be quite hair raising carrying one through difficult roads/terrain on two wheels.

 

Like the MP38/40 and the US M3 the bolt of the Sten was held back by a slot in the reciver , so if dropped it could jump out. But if as should have been done the magazine was turned to 90* no problems. There is a lot of rot talked of the Sten if used properly it was just as relaible as the rest of the blowback 9mm weapons. :-\

[RAFMT]

Even with the bolt simply left forward, i.e. uncocked, then would be fine if dropped.

In fact somebody recently tests, and a new sten from the factory, would have had a stronger spring and less likely for the bolt to jump from the safety slot than one that been used for a while. But dropped from shoulder height (not by an actual person- H&S wouldn't allow that) it never went off while uncocked and only went of a couple of times while cocked and in the safe position.

But as Tony said the sten was no worse than other 9mm blowbacks, but people see the crude manufacture of the weapon (it is after all 2 pipes some metal blocks and a sring) as an indication of it's quality as a weapon.

[Chris Hall]

Hypothetically, it is possible for a design like the STEN (Mk1 to 3) to discharge a round if it was dropped on the butt with the block forward. The probability is slim though as it would have to have enough impact for the block to be forced rearward enough to collect and fire the round, but not to much that the block engages on the sear. A STEN dropped from waist height doesn't impart any where near enough energy on the block to cause this.

 

There's also stories of STENs discharging whole magazines. The fact is that the STEN couldn't discharge a whole mag by accident, in fact it could only ever be possible to fire one round by accident. After the first round had been discharged, the block would travel rearward under full blowback, just like if the trigger had been intentialy depressed. This would mean the block would come to rest against the sear and it would be impossible for a further round to be discharged (Unless the gun or ammo was unserviceable).

 

If any of the STEN series were dropped with the block in the rear and rotated position, a serviceable gun should never accidentally discharge as again, the sear would prevent the block from moving forward.

 

The STEN MkV introduced a new 'Safetly cocking handle MkV' which could lock the block to the body when in the forward position, stopping the block moving rearwards if the gun received an impact. This new handle was retro fitted to many thousands of the Mk1 to 3 guns making a unmodified gun scarce these days.

 

I think the STEN received a unfair rep, yes it was a cheap mass produced weapon, but it was just what was needed at the time.

[guy66]

Hello, on most of the pictures with a dispatch rider armed with a sten gun on the back it is mostly without the magazine in the gun and if they are wearing dispatch rider boots you can seen the magazine in the boot.

 

If you drive a bike with a sten gun on your back the magazine sticks always out.I know it because I tray to do it.

 

Guy

[ferretfixer]

Chris is absolutely correct in his statement regarding the Sten. This is ALSO true of almost ALL open Bolt Operated Sub-Machine Guns. The Sten was a good Weapon & did the job it was designed to do. There was NOTHING wrong with the gun. It was the MAGAZINES that caused any of the problems you hear 'stories' about! IE: Jamming, Mis feeds, Dirt/ Debris obstructing the mag Follower Etc Etc. Post war, Sterling designed & manufactured their Superb 34 round magazine. Apart from the potential area that was vulnerable. IE: The Magazine lips, they virtually eliminated Jams & Misfeeds! The gun was extremely reliable when used with these magazines. It was also designed to accept Sten Gun Magazines, that could also be used in an emergency. In the Sterling. HOWEVER, Sterling cleverly designed it so you could NOT use Sterling magazines in a Sten, in standard form! Very Clever! If you were a foreign army & had stens. Thinking if you only bought new Sterling mags, you could upgrade your sten reliability Factor. You could NOT!.....In the US where full auto ownership is possible to the individual. There are aftermarket adapters, that fit in a Sten Mag Housing to allow you to use Sterling magazines! The Gun then becomes eminently reliable, & a pleasure to shoot!

[g4ce]

Some fantastic information and photos!

Does anyone know if the female dispatch riders were armed too? 

In particular the ATS, Ive heard they were the only women armed in WW2 but havent been able to clarify

[No Signals]

I cannot help with any photos which show ATS girls with personal protection weapons who were DR's but can provide this photo of a member of 137th (Mixed) Heavy Anti-Aircraft Regiment, Royal Artillery, with a Sten gun, Belgium, 26 January 1944.  So should it be the case that the ATS  DR's were armed - they were not alone.