Starfire Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 My Saracen is fitted with a Jolley kit and probably the best praise that I can level at it is that I have never given it any thought - it just works, unlike 2 sets of Lucas points, which just don't Cheers, Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cold_War_Collection Posted September 9, 2014 Author Share Posted September 9, 2014 Speaking of points... these had to be removed and heavily cleaned on the 3A engine... ...before we FINALLY had engine start and run today yippeeeeeeeeeeeeee now the work starts ! cheers Nick CWC Canada Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starfire Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 Congrats! it's always an important milestone. Cheers, Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cold_War_Collection Posted October 7, 2014 Author Share Posted October 7, 2014 Engine bay done, deck lids going on now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starfire Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 Engine bay done, deck lids going on now That's really weird. It almost looks like a Saracen engine bay, but without any of the protective layer of grime that keeps it all in good condition I love your work and it's really tempting me to attempt a similar rebuild on the museum's Mk 2 that is in a somewhat sorry state. Cheers, Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starfire Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 Actually, an observation is that in my engine bay, everything is silver, including the air filters, vacuum tank, oil cooler, etc. The only things that are blue are the engine from the air-horn down (carburettor is black) and the radiator cap. My engine also has the engine number stencilled on top of it in red. I don't know which is more correct. Cheers, Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cold_War_Collection Posted October 8, 2014 Author Share Posted October 8, 2014 Actually, an observation is that in my engine bay, everything is silver, including the air filters, vacuum tank, oil cooler, etc. The only things that are blue are the engine from the air-horn down (carburettor is black) and the radiator cap. My engine also has the engine number stencilled on top of it in red. I don't know which is more correct. Cheers, Terry good question, under the old silver paint in the air cleaner housing, they were blue!..., so I'm not sure why, but I put it back to that. I know, everything I have seen so far, all is silver, save the block and air cleaner horn. Perhaps someone can weigh in? cheers Nick CWC Canada Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cold_War_Collection Posted October 8, 2014 Author Share Posted October 8, 2014 Also, to add...the "Y" pipe for the carb was painted the same as the engine, and the vac tank and rad were black, although I have seen silver and blue in other pictures of in service units. adds to the fun of reserach :-) Cheers Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cold_War_Collection Posted October 8, 2014 Author Share Posted October 8, 2014 That's really weird. It almost looks like a Saracen engine bay, but without any of the protective layer of grime that keeps it all in good condition I love your work and it's really tempting me to attempt a similar rebuild on the museum's Mk 2 that is in a somewhat sorry state. Cheers, Terry Thanks!! now the protective layer is gone....I'll have to watch for rust :nut: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datadawg Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 Gearbox in! big event for us, NOS gearbox and transfer case slid into position! [ATTACH=CONFIG]87141[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]87142[/ATTACH] cheers Nick CWC Canada Very nice thread and impressive work. I do have to ask, where did you get the NOS gearbox and transfer case? Were they squirreled away for years or can they be still located? I am in process of buying a Saracen that I plan to get overhauled in UK, and I'm just trying to calibrate how much effort this level of restoration is going to require. I can't imagine it's economically viable if I'm paying someone to do it (meaning if I spend X on restoration and the finished product value goes up only 1/4 X, it's not economically viable). Any idea of man hours involved?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starfire Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 ...if I spend X on restoration and the finished product value goes up only 1/4 X, it's not economically viable... If you want a viable investment, don't buy a Saracen. The bloody things eat time and money, especially if you want to do it up right and then use it. You will never make money from one. If you want a toy that will make you happy (as well as broke and with skinned knuckles), then you'll love a Saracen. To answer your question, most parts are reasonably easy to find, especially major mechanical components. Servicing parts and consumables, not so much, but you can work around them. Cheers, Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cold_War_Collection Posted March 18, 2015 Author Share Posted March 18, 2015 I Agree with Terry, these don't have a solid return on investment as of yet. The trick is to purchace the best condtion unit you can find, buy that with as much of the CES as you can get, and keep it in good shape. A couple went through the Littlefield Collection Auction, and this is a good USA price baseline for armor already on this side of the Atlantic. We undertook this project as it had been stripped for restoration many years before, then got "back lined" for other projects, and so sat for many years. It was a decision that we better restore it, as it had really no value as she sat. We had much of the NOS parts here, but manged to find a Transfer Case quite easily (ours had broken gear teeth inside) So, hours into it? Its been a part time effort for basically one person ( that's me) as we have a dozen other MV's to look after, plus other vintage cars here. A guess of actual time would be in the 1500 hour range at this point, thats roughly 60 hours per month over a 24 month period. I can be very slow with one person doing tasks, depending on the job. Spent many hours for example cutting apart the outer layer of hull, shot spaying and re-welding. Its 99 percent done right now, with just the RFC shroud to be bent up and lights to be wired. They are a challenge, as any armor is, but a good one that will keep you engaged in the hobby, thats for certain. Cheers Nick CWC Canada Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starfire Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 This is why you buy a Saracen: It's about the most fun you can have with your pants on Cheers, Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datadawg Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 So, hours into it? Its been a part time effort for basically one person ( that's me) as we have a dozen other MV's to look after, plus other vintage cars here. A guess of actual time would be in the 1500 hour range at this point, thats roughly 60 hours per month over a 24 month period. Well, I wired the payment in the last 24 hours, so this is sobering info. I was under the misguided impression that an overhaul could be done in 150 man hours, which would have kept the budget in the rational realm. And dare I say, I did not lay eyes on this puppy? Yup, I bought it based on a dozen pictures. Some day, I will be telling my grandkids stories and hopefully they won't start with "many years ago, your grandpa learned he was an idiot". Let me ask this: assuming my situation (no time, desire or skill to do mechanical work myself) and the fact that I am paying someone hourly, what would you guys have me do on the Saracen? I planned to have the shop remove turret, engine/gearbox combo, strip the paint to bare metal and repaint exterior/interior; service all fluids, brakes, tuneup.... But I really want to make sure this thing doesn't break down when I get it here and runs and drives whenever I want to take the kids for a ride. Or am I being completely delusional?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datadawg Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 Does anyone have the Kremlin kit installed on their Saracen? They're bulky and as ugly as hell, but I'd really like one on mine for some reason. What is a Kremlin kit?? I would have guessed a chilled cupholder for vodka, but I know this can't be right! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ltwtbarmy Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 What is a Kremlin kit?? I would have guessed a chilled cupholder for vodka, but I know this can't be right! This should answer your question: http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?33342-Alvis-saracen-kremlin&highlight=Alvis+ebay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robin craig Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 I think I know who wants to put a Kremlin kit back on theirs don't I? Someone should do it, will make it quite the vehicle to show off at car shows. R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starfire Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Let me ask this: assuming my situation (no time, desire or skill to do mechanical work myself) and the fact that I am paying someone hourly, what would you guys have me do on the Saracen? I planned to have the shop remove turret, engine/gearbox combo, strip the paint to bare metal and repaint exterior/interior; service all fluids, brakes, tuneup.... But I really want to make sure this thing doesn't break down when I get it here and runs and drives whenever I want to take the kids for a ride. Or am I being completely delusional?? I have really agonized over a response to this question and honestly, I think you may be getting in over your head, unless you have plenty of spare cash. I would never even consider owning an armoured vehicle without having the time and experience to do most of the spanner turning - I make a decent wage, but there is no way that I could afford to pay someone else to do all of the work for me and besides, the maintenance is a big part of the ownership experience. 1500 hours is an excessive amount; don't forget that is based on Nick's complete rebuild of his Mk 6 with his psychotic attention to detail included in essentially a concourse restoration - you probably won't find a better Saracen anywhere. While I can't give you an estimate of what you should be doing or spending, unless you can find a workshop that is familiar with this kind of vehicle, you will be paying for their time to learn how to work with it, which will add to your costs. If you can find a local military vehicle group, it would be worth your time to join it. Unless anything is actually broken on your Saracen, your best bet is to pay for a full flush and service of all of the gearboxes, oil, hydraulic and fuel tanks and then pretty much learn to live with it. New paint is nice, but doesn't affect how the vehicle will run. Fitting electronic ignition and an electric fuel pump will also make it easier to live with. If you think that you're going to be able to get the vehicle "sorted" and then just have it sitting around ready for a spur of the moment joyride, I think that you're going to be disappointed with it. Post war British AFVs were noted for being overcomplicated and difficult to maintain and the Saracen, while quite capable, rugged and fairly reliable, was one of the worst offenders, which is why they were rather quickly replaced with the FV432 in front-line British service and other vehicles around the world. The Saracen has 14 gearboxes, a fluid flywheel, a dry sump, a tyre pump and a hydraulic system, all of which are going to leak to some degree and need checking and maintenance at some stage. The vehicle needs to be run at least every 2 weeks to ensure that the generator bearings do not run dry, otherwise there is a real risk of damaging it on startup. I understand that you have also purchased a Fox, which being essentially an evolution of the Ferret, has similar mechanicals with the added problem of spare parts being very thin on the ground. I really don't want to discourage you, but I think you need to look at this more realistically and understand that owning an armoured vehicle is like buying a horse - unless you have a lot of money and staff to take care of it, you are going to have to invest time, effort and money into its upkeep and it will largely cost you the same whether you use it or not. Learning how to work on such a vehicle can be very rewarding though. I like to describe owning a Saracen as "the best terrible decision that I've ever made". It's expensive and frustrating, but it's also great fun and certainly gives me something to do. If you have any questions, please feel free to ask. Cheers, Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCMatt Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Some good advice there, Starfire. Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daleheywoodtanks Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 I wish i had read this thread before i bought mine 2 weeks ago, never mind ! i will be doing the work myself and hopefully enjoying it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCMatt Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 I wish i had read this thread before i bought mine 2 weeks ago, never mind !i will be doing the work myself and hopefully enjoying it. Take into consideration that at least you're in the UK so parts should be easier to source, purchase & cheaper to ship. Not to mention all of the Saracen owners & Vets who served on them that are around to help with questions. So things may not be all that bad for you :cool2:. There was a saracen about 30 miles south of me for sale a while back. I thought the owner wanted too much for it (around $30k) and I know he didn't pull his PMs on the beast. He finally sold it to someone....I'm actually happy with my ferret Mk.1/2 Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starfire Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 I wish i had read this thread before i bought mine 2 weeks ago, never mind !i will be doing the work myself and hopefully enjoying it. Don't read too much into it. If you're willing and able to turn a spanner and do the maintenance, they aren't too bad, as long as you get the fact that it's essentially a heavy truck and a rather complex one at that. If you're confidant that you could maintain a truck, you can manage a Saracen, especially if you understand the fact that it has a lot of things that need checking/maintaining and the fact that things are hard to access. I still have nightmares about topping up my fluid flywheel - especially the bit where the guy helping me do it dropped the special tool (that is supposed to stop things falling into the flywheel housing) into the flywheel housing 1) Buy the manuals. 2) Read the manuals. 3) Read the manuals again. 4) Buy good tools. 4a) Especially the special service tools like the fluid flywheel tool and the drain plug tool. 4b) The user handbook lists all of the tools in the standard tool kit in the back. Make sure that you get all of these, at the very least. It mostly lists combination wrenches and box spanners, but I would suggest getting ROE wrenches and sockets instead. Some deep sockets will also prove handy. As yours is a Mk 6, it is probably fitted with the B80 Mk 6A engine which uses UNF threads, in which case you can get away with not having Whitworth tools, although I do run into the occasional Whitworth bolt, usually lurking somewhere in the engine bay, but not on the actual engine. I bought the 25/32 spanner and socket, as per the tool list, but I have never found a need or use for it and it was a pain to find them (my tool shop ended up having to order them in and it took months)! For the bigger sizes (> 1"), get 3/4" drive sockets, as well as a short (~1.5') and long (~2.5') breaker bars and a 3/4" to 1/2" adapter. This allows you to do things like crack your wheel nuts (1 5/16") with the breaker bar and then use a 1/2" ratchet to undo them the rest of the way. 5) Follow the service schedule. 6) Read the manuals again. In between all of those steps, ask questions on HMVF and Facebook. Cheers, Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cold_War_Collection Posted April 2, 2015 Author Share Posted April 2, 2015 Don't read too much into it. If you're willing and able to turn a spanner and do the maintenance, they aren't too bad, as long as you get the fact that it's essentially a heavy truck and a rather complex one at that. If you're confidant that you could maintain a truck, you can manage a Saracen, especially if you understand the fact that it has a lot of things that need checking/maintaining and the fact that things are hard to access. I still have nightmares about topping up my fluid flywheel - especially the bit where the guy helping me do it dropped the special tool (that is supposed to stop things falling into the flywheel housing) into the flywheel housing 1) Buy the manuals. 2) Read the manuals. 3) Read the manuals again. 4) Buy good tools. 4a) Especially the special service tools like the fluid flywheel tool and the drain plug tool. 4b) The user handbook lists all of the tools in the standard tool kit in the back. Make sure that you get all of these, at the very least. It mostly lists combination wrenches and box spanners, but I would suggest getting ROE wrenches and sockets instead. Some deep sockets will also prove handy. As yours is a Mk 6, it is probably fitted with the B80 Mk 6A engine which uses UNF threads, in which case you can get away with not having Whitworth tools, although I do run into the occasional Whitworth bolt, usually lurking somewhere in the engine bay, but not on the actual engine. I bought the 25/32 spanner and socket, as per the tool list, but I have never found a need or use for it and it was a pain to find them (my tool shop ended up having to order them in and it took months)! For the bigger sizes (> 1"), get 3/4" drive sockets, as well as a short (~1.5') and long (~2.5') breaker bars and a 3/4" to 1/2" adapter. This allows you to do things like crack your wheel nuts (1 5/16") with the breaker bar and then use a 1/2" ratchet to undo them the rest of the way. 5) Follow the service schedule. 6) Read the manuals again. In between all of those steps, ask questions on HMVF and Facebook. Cheers, Terry Sorry for sounding negative, They are a fun "truck" to work on, and yes, we have done a complete down to the last bolt strip and re-assemble, and had to deal with a blown T Case and cracked engine block to boot, as well as fabricate items such as the wings from scratch, so its more an "insitutional" level restoration. We have solid corperate backers that fund the work, so we can take the time and resources needed / wanted to do a museum level job. Keep in mind that this Mk 6 might...might see 20 hours a year run time once finished. Biggest item for us was the hull repair, which saw the removal of large sections of the outer add on armor to deal with the rust that was essentially breaking the hull apart from the inside, and this was cut away with a circular hand grinder and cut off blade....that was many, many hours right there. On the whole, it has been a straight forward mechanical job, but only possible with the advice from Terry "read everything many times! from the manuals have fun, and please feel free to ask anything you like Cheers Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datadawg Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Thanks everyone for the advice. I am going to learn to roll with the punches. It's still many months before I actually see it, but I will have the shop do as much as possible mechanically. They started taking stuff apart this week, but I am on vacation and only have limited contact. I just heard they will have to fabricate the front shroud due to rust on existing piece, but that is all I know for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datadawg Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 We have solid corperate backers that fund the work, so we can take the time and resources needed / wanted to do a museum level job. Cheers Nick My Saracen has landed in USA, and I have even managed to drive it twice. After the first 10 mile drive, which was as nerve racking as Columbus's journey to America in 1492 and probably took just as long, I discovered to my utter shock and chagrin a bunch of dark oil looking like fluid on the bottom of the hull. I don't want to hijack Nick's thread, other than to say, I wish I had corporate sponsorship right about now!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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