chevpol Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 Afternoon folks, had this in my collection for a while, but only recently had it confirmed as a 1902 Pattern smock, but what was the purpose of the button holes on the waist? Also a small pocket at the bottom of the smock on the inside? TTFN Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdbikemad Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 The slots at the waist are for inserting the brass belt-support hooks, removable for washing......I have spares if you need a pair...? The small pocket at the lower-front is for the first field dressing.....you can find similar on serge SD jackets right up to the 60s ! Looking at the photos, the jacket has been shorted by sewing-up the lower-edge, covering half of the pocket...... There exist other patterns of this jacket, including a version with single-pointed breast pocket flaps........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
43rdrecce Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Mark, It's a post WW1 Indian manufactured example. It is not a 1902 pattern frock however. Both the pattern and colour had been revised several times since the 1902 pattern had been introduced. The Indian made frocks are identified by the rectangular pocket flaps. None of the UK factory made examples had this style of pocket flaps and instead had pointed flaps. The original 1902 pattern frock had a lot more shaping on the body and was quite close fitting in shape. The example shown is a modified version which incorporates some of the features of the WW1 simplified frock pattern. A true 1902 pattern would not have had the large size dressing pocket shown here. These were modified when the First Field Dressing was increased in size (a second dressing was added for entry and exit wounds) around 1906-1908 but seem to have taken some time to appear. I have a serge SD jacket made around 1911 which still has the smaller dressing pocket fitted. Several items of kit were modified in the period between 1906-1908. The other thing that muddies the water with Early KD is the availability of bazaar made items. These were often hybrids of British issue and Indian Army made items. The Indian made items were usually a paler shade of KD however. This Indian shade, slightly paler and greener than British made cloth was eventually adopted for general use in around 1921-23. As with all periods older stocks of cloth were used up first and it is possible to find oddities and variations. I hope this is of interest. Cheers Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unionjack Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 Very nice. Looks to be 1930's period. Oh, and it's a tunic not a smock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdbikemad Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 (edited) Very nice. Looks to be 1930's period. Oh, and it's a tunic not a smock Now there's a question ! The Army, and RAF, seemed to have termed the serge garment as a "Jacket", rather than a "Tunic", although some tropical garments seem to be referred to as a "Frock"..............labeling also commonly refers to "Jacket"....(eg - "Jackets, SD" (Service Dress), "Jackets, OA" (Other Airmen), etc........ Mind you, I've seen some early 1941-42 dated British Army "SAS" type windproof smocks in both green denim and sand, that are labelled "Blouses" rather than "Smock"........ Edited December 24, 2012 by wdbikemad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
43rdrecce Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 No, with KD it's a 'frock' the term tunic was not used at that period. Service Dress was always a 'Jacket' this is easily confirmed by looking at any set of pre war dress regs. Not sure how you've identified it as 1930s. The pattern shown was sealed in 1921 and was not subsequently changed. Cheers Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdbikemad Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 (edited) No, with KD it's a 'frock' the term tunic was not used at that period. Service Dress was always a 'Jacket' this is easily confirmed by looking at any set of pre war dress regs. Not sure how you've identified it as 1930s. The pattern shown was sealed in 1921 and was not subsequently changed. Cheers Paul Paul....I haven't confirmed anything as "1930s".......you may be referring to someone else's post...? And I have in no way ever mentioned the '30s so not sure how you've arrived at that ??? (check my posts).... I'm only referring to my own personal experience of non-tropical uniform of the era that refer to "jackets"........and I haven't looked at dress regs for the particular era !!! (I'm far more interested at present in the post-45 gear for the combat clothing book where I HAVE consulted everything from official records through to Uncle Tom Cobbly's memoirs !!!!....maybe I should just concentrate on what I do know about...!)....... Edited December 25, 2012 by wdbikemad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
43rdrecce Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 Hi Steve, Sorry Steve I should have incl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
43rdrecce Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 Ooops don't know what happened then. Don't post on a phone....Steve I should have included a quote from Unionjack it was that post I was answering. KD is a confusing subject up to the end of WW1 as there were multiple pattern from 1896 onwards ie Boer War to end of WW1. From 1921 things get clearer until the patterns were reorganised when the 'WW2' patterns came along. I have a late 1930s Som LI KD suit which has a dressing pocket on the shorts. This is an Indian made item but reflecting the latest Battledress style. Merry Christmas! Cheers Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unionjack Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 Hmm. Interesting, I've always thought in terms of 'SD Tunics' and 'BD Blouses' where blouse is to the waist and tunic is longer and belted. Now you say, I realise most labels do indeed state 'jacket', although of course what is on the label and hat the WD termed them may not be the same thing. I'll have to search all my stuff now for a label with "tunic" on it to redeem myself! My dictionary states that a jacket ends at the waist, and a tunic is longer. As for why I thought the Tunic/Jacket/coat/shirt in question is from the 30's, I do realise the pattern is what get's called '22 pattern, and these were generally stopped early war, also that the bachelor buttons are wartime 'era', and thought it most likely to be late 1930's. True 1920's inter-war kit is very scarce mainly due to our army being tiny at that time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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