Enfield1940 Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 Hi, One for the hardcore webbingologists – there’s a minor mystery regarding P44 water bottle cups that’s niggling me… I recently acquired an example of the later type of P44 water bottle with the rubber rather than metal cap. It came with a carrier and 2 unmarked cups, one of which is identical to the unmarked cup shown in the P44 water bottle section of Karkeeweb: http://www.karkeeweb.com/patterns/1944/1944_equipment_bottle.html The text comments that “The two cups in the photos far and centre left above have different styles of rivets - these are presumably manufacturing differences of no great significance”. And another example of this combination of rubber topped bottle and unmarked cup recently appeared on eBay: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/200821320316?nma=true&si=4lT1e%2BPPi3ScSoYWn3%2BpHQlpptI%3D&rt=nc&_trksid=p4340.l2557&orig_cvip=true I’d always taken it as read that unmarked P44 type/style cups weren’t British issue. So is Karkeeweb wrong or right? Any ideas why this combination keeps appearing? Is the bottle actually a foreign copy? A hands on comparison reveals the bottle is a slightly looser fit in the unmarked cup than in a marked up British one. Cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotch Harry Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 Mark,I am of the same opinion/thought as you in that all the mugs that are unstamped/marked are NOT British issue but are either Nato or just commercial made copies. At one time it was stated they were Danish but have had example of Danish mugs and these are stamped on the bottom. Another question that has bugged the hell out of me is why are NONE(or none I have ever seen) of the bottles stamped/marked? Again,like the mugs I have seen a Danish bottle,pretty much identical and that was stamped at the bottom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdbikemad Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 The Dutch also used and made 44 pattern kit.....and with much unmarked 44 webbing still around it's no surprise that the mugs follow similar and are probably from a foreign source...... I bought several NOS 1st pattern metal capped British 44 bottles and mugs from a Dutch seller at Beltring two years ago now at a very reasonable £5 each......the bottles were unmarked (and undented !) and had the chained retainer securing the cap........the mugs themselves were riveted and all WD-stamped and dated 1945.......the bottles were definitely British and of the very early pattern..... The rubber-capped bottle is believed to be UK issue and of 195os - 60s production........the screw thread on these is not the same as the earlier metal variety thus not interchangeable....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enfield1940 Posted September 26, 2012 Author Share Posted September 26, 2012 (edited) The Dutch also used and made 44 pattern kit.....and with much unmarked 44 webbing still around it's no surprise that the mugs follow similar and are probably from a foreign source...... I bought several NOS 1st pattern metal capped British 44 bottles and mugs from a Dutch seller at Beltring two years ago now at a very reasonable £5 each......the bottles were unmarked (and undented !) and had the chained retainer securing the cap........the mugs themselves were riveted and all WD-stamped and dated 1945.......the bottles were definitely British and of the very early pattern..... I'd be unsurprised if the mug is foreign, but I've yet to positively ID it. There was someone doing P44 bottles with the chained caps for £2 each this year, although they weren't undented. I grabbed one as it was silly not to at that price. I have a suspicion they may be Danish though: http://m55q.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/M45-50%20webbing%20equipment Edited September 26, 2012 by Enfield1940 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotch Harry Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 Danish bottles(or at least all the ones Ive seen over the years) have been stamped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garys39 Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Due to reading this debate, the following caught my eye at the weekend in a pile of 1970's camping equipment at the local carboot sale, bought for the princely sum of £3, a PATT 44 1965 dated cup and unmarked bottle. Regards Gary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimpy Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 I'd be unsurprised if the mug is foreign, but I've yet to positively ID it. There was someone doing P44 bottles with the chained caps for £2 each this year, although they weren't undented. I grabbed one as it was silly not to at that price. I have a suspicion they may be Danish though: http://m55q.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/M45-50%20webbing%20equipment Hi guys, just to stick my 2pennorth into the mix. As far as I am aware, British 44ptn w/bottles have NEVER had a chain retainer, it was/is a cord wrapped and tied around the neck of the bottle and knotted through the retainer loop on top of the bottle cap. There is also an obvious weight difference between British and foreign made 44ptn type w/bottles and mugs with the genuine British ones being obvious heavier when compared "like for like". Mugs are usually date stamped, maker marked etc on the rivetted handle retainer plate, not sure about the w/bottles though, (I loaned mine out some years ago and never got it back so cant check it out) 44ptn equipment has been copied, and, in some cases is still being copied, the world over. (The w/bottle carrier and mug themselves copies of the equivelent US Army ones!) Hope this is of some help. Regards etc Ian D AKA: Jimpy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimpy Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 The rubber-capped bottle is believed to be UK issue and of 195os - 60s production........the screw thread on these is not the same as the earlier metal variety thus not interchangeable....... Hi wdbikemad. You are correct on both counts mate. The rubber capped w/bottle WAS UK issue and NOT compatible with the metal capped w/bottles threading. Regards etc Ian D AKA: Jimpy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotch Harry Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 As far as I am aware, British 44ptn w/bottles have NEVER had a chain retainer, The early ones did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCA75 Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 I'm guessing the metal retaining chain was soon replaced with cord..Cant see the tactical advantage of rattling chain! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotch Harry Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 The chains were certainly replaced by individual squaddies but they definitely were original to the early caps. On the subject of the early metal(or whatever they are made of)I guess they were replaced for many reasons of which 2 I can think of myself-they are a bugger to close and easily cross thread and also while trying to close they have a tendency to make quite a high pitched squealing noise,not very good in tactical situations I wouldnt think so a great idea changing over to rubber. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdbikemad Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 As mentioned, chains were fitted to the original wartime issue 45 bottles with the metal cap......they are secured onto a riveted boss on the cap and the lower end to a wire retainer looped around the neck of the bottle...... However, it would seem, for several obvious reasons, that the chain was quickly removed in the field....and subsequently officially replaced in manufacture post war.......few soldiers were ever issued NOS bottles, and anything issued post war would likely have by then featured the cord.....I have a (almost) new metal-capped bottle in the collection that has had the chain retainer removed and replaced with a short length of cord that appears to be wartime parachute line....... Speaking with some well established webbing collectors, it would seem the opinion that no British manufactured bottles were ever marked.......I must have had at least a dozen through my hands over the years from wartime through to 60s manufacture......and was issued with two during the early 80s...........none were marked.......although the mugs were....... Anyone seen the very early mug with the different shaped handles...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotch Harry Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Got me intrigued now,any pics please? Anyone seen the very early mug with the different shaped handles...? Also intrigued as to the "fact" that non British bottles are a different weight than British ones,would love to find out if thats true or not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCA75 Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Well, i have two 44patt waterbottles in my collection.One is NOS and the other is a rather battered example.The NOS one has a metal loop around the neck of the bottle with a chain that is directly riveted onto the cap.(?)The battered one has a piece of paracord holding the cap and is held on by a small ali loop on the cap. The NOS bottle weighs in at 6 1/2 oz. What a rock and roll evening im having! http://www.karkeeweb.com/patterns/1944/1944_equipment_bottle.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enfield1940 Posted October 2, 2012 Author Share Posted October 2, 2012 What Price Glory have some metal chained ones: http://onlinemilitaria.com/shopexd.asp?id=1946&bc=no It looks the same as the ones I saw at Beltring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enfield1940 Posted October 13, 2012 Author Share Posted October 13, 2012 Yet another example of that type of bottle and mug paired together: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/44-Pattern-Water-Bottle-and-Mug-used-/221139692933?pt=UK_Collectables_Militaria_LE&hash=item337cf3ed85 curiouser and curiouser... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fallschirmwomble Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 I know it's an old thread but I think I've an answer... Quote Enfield1940: I’d always taken it as read that unmarked P44 type/style cups weren’t British issue. So is Karkeeweb wrong or right? Any ideas why this combination keeps appearing? Is the bottle actually a foreign copy? Quote Scotch Harry: Mark,I am of the same opinion/thought as you in that all the mugs that are unstamped/marked are NOT British issue but are either Nato or just commercial made copies. I've been collecting British webbing since the 1970s and I firmly believed the same until lately. That said, I've never understood why mess tins were always stamped yet not '44 waterbottles. Not a single one. I was a Paratrooper reservist in the 1980s and 1990s and I worked in the company QM stores as often as I could. We had both types of '44 w/b and both types of '44 mug. A mix of '44 and '58 waterbottles (as desired, if availability allowed) were still issued right up to 1990, when the S10 respirator cap needed to be fitted to the webbing carried w/b (but not the spare carried in the bergen). By that time, of the w/bs, what remained were knackered: dented to hell, leaky or permanently jammed into mugs - King Arthur may have drawn the Sword In The Stone but he would have struggled drawing the "Waterbottle In The Mug"... On leaving, I handed in a '58 mug instead of my trusty '44 - which I still have. It's unmarked like many of the mugs that were in stores. I thought that that was 'cause it was one of the many items that 5 Airborne Brigade had made by special contract. I know that 5 Ab Bde had '44 waterbottle pouches made (with 1980s ordnance markings) because we were waiting on their issue for many months. When I was issued a '95 mug (aka "Crusader cup") in the late 1990s, I consigned my '44 mug to my van emergency kit box and forgot about it. Digging it out recently, I took it to be an imitation and not the one I was issued in the 1980s. Checking photographs, it turns out to be the one I was issued and identical to the unmarked one on Karkeeweb. I've also a marked '44 mug (MMS dated 1961). Dates seen on mugs so far are 1945, 1961, 1964 and 1965. Perhaps these mugs were made only by one manufacturer (MMS), the unmarked ones by others? I recently acquired a Danish Army M59 waterbottle for bushcraft - unlike the British waterbottles, it's ordnance stamped on the base. It looks identical to a '44 Mk1 but for it's plastic cap. Doesn't fit properly into either of my '44 mugs, though, nor my '95 mug. A pity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webkitlover Posted October 14, 2019 Share Posted October 14, 2019 (edited) DAMMIT! 😧 I gave a "rubber/plastic cap" 44 bottle away to a charity shop a few years ago! I say "rubber /plastic" because I think the lid was perhaps a form of late bakalite? or early polyurethene? it had a solid outer and a rubber washer but the whole cap wasn't made of just rubber. anyhow, Someone gave me this bottle to me as a swap for kit, saying it "might" be a 44" bottle, but they wern't sure. The bottle was heavily scratched and dented, It had a cord replacement on the lid, the rubber cap was not a good fit, (so it was limited practical use to me anyway). I also couldn't see any markings military or other on it at all. I kept it in my cupboard a few years. The only 44" bottles I'd heard of at the time had metal lids because I'd heard people used to paint the tops to camouflage them. ultimately the lack of metal lid and no markings I assumed it was simply a fake. I showed it to some veteran friends they also couldn't identify it for the same reasons, and they weren't issued them so had no idea either, infact they suggested it might even be American issue, which I knew was even further from the truth. I couldn't prove if it was (or not) real and it was in bad condition, so I sent it to a charity shop in a bundle of clothes, thought someone else may know what it is and didn't think twice about it. About a month or 2 later, I visited Duxford IWM they have a few displays of 1944" kit and they displayed both types of the 44" bottle! but.... on the first Photo you can clearly see: A 44" waterbottle, it's painted green for camo, with a black rubber cap, and a parachute cord for the cap! 😱 NOOOOOOOO!!!! and the second photo shows the same type of bottle in it's pouch with cord again! Edited October 14, 2019 by webkitlover Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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