restoration IWM Duxford Centurion Mk III (that one off the telly)

[Caddy]

It been a few weeks since I was at Duxford, but managed to catch up with my mate and found out what he's been up to:

 

First of all a game of guess what:

It's cast ally, very light.

If anyone can guess what it is can they tell me what it was doing in the inlet manifold of B Bank head. It had to be drilled and split to get it out so it looks like it was built into the engine.

 

Against our better judgement B Bank has been split and steam cleaned (huge amaounts of sandy greasy gunk coming out of the waterways), the valve have been taken out and cleaned. The inlet and exhaust ports have been de-coke'd ready to be re-faced.

All they coolant transfers removed, soaked in vinegar and then cleaned up (I did that - vey proud of myself).

We've had another visit from the gremlins: all the valves were moved around in the holding block and emery paper has been taken to some of the ports........

All fixable but blummin' annoying.

 

What next? Well the heads need to be checked for warping, the valves and seats for B bank need re-facing and then lapping in. A bank head definately needs skimming, and then we need a few O rings, and to steam clean the block, oil all bearings and then re-built the engine.

Then the electrics...............

[ferrettkitt]

Against our better judgement B Bank has been split and steam cleaned (huge amounts of sandy greasy gunk coming out of the waterways), the valve have been taken out and cleaned. The inlet and exhaust ports have been de-coke'd ready to be re-faced.

All they coolant transfers removed, soaked in vinegar and then cleaned up (I did that - vey proud of myself).

We've had another visit from the gremlins: all the valves were moved around in the holding block and emery paper has been taken to some of the ports........

All fixable but blummin' annoying.

 

Could you not use a hammer on the gremlins fingers, said gremlin won't touch without asking again!

[Caddy]

Could you not use a hammer on the gremlins fingers, said gremlin won't touch without asking again!

 

 

I was thinking that if I managed to catch the gremlin then a bulldog clip in a certain place might have been good, but fingers are a more practicable idea.

 

 

My mate 'M' has refaced the valves (after stripping and cleaning the armature, and then replacing the brushes in the valve refacer), and re-faced the seats.

The valves are apparently in good condition, but the seats could ideally do with replacing. Unfortunately the IWM would not be able to afford this at the moment, so the head will be built with the existing valves.

There is another option which we will look at; we have found a collection of NOS B bank heads all with brand new seats, we are going to find out how much one would cost.

 

Does anyone out there have any experience with getting parts for the Meteor engine? There have been rumours flying around that there are O ring kits available to make the rings for the coolant transfer ferrules; these are an oval section ring rather than a perfect circle and I have only come across kits with circle section material. Also what grade of material will be the closest match to the material used by RR for the original rings?

 

Cheers

[Lauren Child]

Does anyone out there have any experience with getting parts for the Meteor engine? There have been rumours flying around that there are O ring kits available to make the rings for the coolant transfer ferrules; these are an oval section ring rather than a perfect circle and I have only come across kits with circle section material. Also what grade of material will be the closest match to the material used by RR for the original rings?

 

Cheers

 

I'd imagine, given the similarities, that you could use Merlin engine ones. It may be worth asking the fighter collection folks for a heads up (especially if anyone's got an b grade options that aren't suitable for the aircraft).

 

Alternatively, I've got this place bookmarked as I'm sure they've come up on a different thread re meteor/merlin parts.

http://www.aerovintagespares.com/

[Caddy]

I'd imagine, given the similarities, that you could use Merlin engine ones. It may be worth asking the fighter collection folks for a heads up (especially if anyone's got an b grade options that aren't suitable for the aircraft).

 

Alternatively, I've got this place bookmarked as I'm sure they've come up on a different thread re meteor/merlin parts.

http://www.aerovintagespares.com/

 

Thanks Lauren,

 

You're right about the merlin parts fitting; we've got a quote from Aviation Jersey for all the rings and seals we need, it's quite expensive though (well not that expensive the coolant transfer o rings are only £2.50 each), so we've been asked to find out if there is a cheaper alternative.

I'm a little hesitant about using an O ring kit as Rolls Royce designed everything to do a specific job, and that included the material used. If we deviate from this path will we increase the likelihood of the engine failing?

[Caddy]

As it was a tad wet yesterday I decided to find a job that would keep me dry. I thought that it would be a good day to check all the HT harnesses for the engine.

As the Meteor is a derivative of the Merlin it still uses 2 sets of magnetos, harnesses, and plugs. This means that we have got to get a good set of HT leads for both Mags.

We could run the engine on one set, but I recon this would lead to a very uneven burn. If RR designed it to run on 2 plugs then who am I to say otherwise.

Going through our stock I found that we had 2 sets of exhaust looms and 3 sets of intake looms. (The 2 spark plugs in each cylinder are situated either side of the combustion chamber; 1 below the exhaust valves and you've guessed it, 1 below the intake valves).

Out of the 2 exhaust sets one is of our engine and the other is still wrapped up and sealed. With the intake looms one came to us refurbished, one was off our engine and the last off a donor engine. The two from engines are in pretty bad condition, but we could probably make a good one out of the two.

I decided that we'd use the rebuilt intake loom and the exhaust loom from our engine.

Next step was to break out the Megger and stick 15,000 volts through them to test for continuity and shorting. The intake loom is in good condition. The exhaust had one lead broken but no shorts so I'll strip it and put in new HT cables in.

Photos to follow.

[Caddy]

Good Morning all,

 

The weather did us proud yesterday for Remembrance Day at Duxford. A very good service was held next to a Shackleton. Very moving.

 

 

A little bit of work has progressed on the engine. Can't remember if told you that M had re-faced the valves and seats in B Bank head. He's happy with the valves, but the seats have a lot of burning and acid damage in them and there is very little meat left to play with. He's going to re-face the seats again to see if they are useable or do we need to change the head?

 

On the HT loom front we went back and did some basic resistance tests with a multimeter as doubt was thrown up as to whether the meger tester was working properly. We found that in general the resistance in the steel cored HT leads was between 0.8 and 1.2 ohms, but when we tested a proportional length of new replacement copper core HT lead that had a resistivity of 0.3 ohm. So we had a quick chat with the committee and knowledgeable members and we were given the go ahead to strip and rplace the HT leads - Lovely!

We started on the Exhaust set and managed to get A bank done (including repairing the rubber cover on the flexible conduit), and will do B bank next week.

We would have done more, but we all went to the remembrance service and before that about 7 of us had a lovely time crawling all over the jagdpanther whilst trying to get a Chieftain tarp over the blummin thing. Lauren Child has some 'interesting'photos I believe.

[snort]

Good Morning all,

 

The weather did us proud yesterday for Remembrance Day at Duxford. A very good service was held next to a Shackleton. Very moving.

 

 

A little bit of work has progressed on the engine. Can't remember if told you that M had re-faced the valves and seats in B Bank head. He's happy with the valves, but the seats have a lot of burning and acid damage in them and there is very little meat left to play with. He's going to re-face the seats again to see if they are useable or do we need to change the head?

 

On the HT loom front we went back and did some basic resistance tests with a multimeter as doubt was thrown up as to whether the meger tester was working properly. We found that in general the resistance in the steel cored HT leads was between 0.8 and 1.2 ohms, but when we tested a proportional length of new replacement copper core HT lead that had a resistivity of 0.3 ohm. So we had a quick chat with the committee and knowledgeable members and we were given the go ahead to strip and rplace the HT leads - Lovely!

We started on the Exhaust set and managed to get A bank done (including repairing the rubber cover on the flexible conduit), and will do B bank next week.

We would have done more, but we all went to the remembrance service and before that about 7 of us had a lovely time crawling all over the jagdpanther whilst trying to get a Chieftain tarp over the blummin thing. Lauren Child has some 'interesting'photos I believe.

 

 

Yes the two minutes silence marked by the 25pounder was only spoilt by Duxfords Fire engine driving through the crowd ! numpty

 

But it was a good day.

[griff66]

cracking day ,weather was kind!

[Adrian Barrell]

Yes the two minutes silence marked by the 25pounder was only spoilt by Duxfords Fire engine driving through the crowd ! numpty

 

But it was a good day.

 

I understand the 25 pr was two minutes early and caught a few people by surprise.........

[Caddy]

It seemed to be spot on at our end, but then it does take a while for sounds to reach us right up at the land warfare hall....

 

sounds about right for the fire brigade - sorry Nev!

[griff66]

as an aside tell whoever to get the tannoy sorted out crackling load of rubbish!!!

[Caddy]

I think they call that the 'rustic aesthetic' harking back to WWII tannoy systems........

 

 

 

 

...... It's crap innit :cool2:

[Pzkpfw-e]

Good Morning all,the jagdpanther

 

Now, where's that come from? There's only 3 in the UK, unless you've raided Bov, I guess it's the ex-IWM Panzerbefehlswagen?

[Caddy]

It's come up from IWM London and is going into the Land Warefare Hall.

 

[Lauren Child]

Now, where's that come from? There's only 3 in the UK, unless you've raided Bov, I guess it's the ex-IWM Panzerbefehlswagen?

 

It's the one that was in IWM London. You can just see it here - http://www.panzerworld.net/jagdpantheriwm

[Lauren Child]

It may be off topic for this thread on the Centurion, but it was quite a comparison to start the day with the Jagdpanther, and then go to a rememberance service held with one of the folks who probably faced exactly this type of vehicle in less friendly times.

 

It's exactly this type of thing that makes volunteering at Duxford worthwhile. Work on rare and interesting vehicles, have a fun time with some mates, and most importantly preserve, remember, and educate in the process. That's the plan anyway - it's often quite hard work.

[Caddy]

You forgot the smut and potty humour, vitally important!

[lowfat]

Did this get finished? or did it drown in politics?

 

John

[Caddy]

The engine is waiting to be rebuilt still. Problem is that our fleet of 432s have been quite unwell and as they are the only source of income for the Military Vehicle Wing we really need to prioritise them.

The other issue is that with an engine like the meteor there is only really one guy in the group who is qualified to do the rebuild - he's on 432 duty at the moment.

[Baz48]

The engine is waiting to be rebuilt still. Problem is that our fleet of 432s have been quite unwell and as they are the only source of income for the Military Vehicle Wing we really need to prioritise them.

The other issue is that with an engine like the meteor there is only really one guy in the group who is qualified to do the rebuild - he's on 432 duty at the moment.

 

It’s good to see the work being done it will be a long slog towards the end of 2011 a running replacement engine was available for the Cen’t but no interest was shown, it’s now in a car!!!!. You may recall the Jagdpanther’s engine was also rebuilt to running condition in the early days of Duxford by a member at his workshop in Suffolk; sadly I don’t have any photos of it moving under its own power but do have it on its delivery to site.

[sexton]

Hi, Caddy, I'm resurrecting this old thread in the hope you are still around. I'm getting close to installing a Mk 4B Meteor in our Mk5/2 Cent at the Ontario Regiment Museum in Ontario, Canada. It's a 1974 rebuild by Scottish Aviation, and it runs well on the test stand after some magneto and carb cleanup. 

I am really interested in the engine installation photos you posted. It looks like you removed the starter, generator, and oil filter, then dropped it in sideways into the hull and rotated it 90 degrees into position. Is that correct? I wasn't planning on removing the oil filter but you say that's needed.

We have the fans installed, but you didn't. Is that a show stopper? 

It also looks like the exhaust manifolds weren't installed. I know we have to remove the right hand one to allow installation of the oil tank post engine install, but is there a reason you had neither installed?  

How did you align the engine to the gearbox? There's quite an elaborate procedure for this in the manual, and I'm struggling with it.

Finally, did the Mk 3 get running under its own power? 

Regards, Malcolm

PS Mike, John's getting back to me.

[Caddy]

16 hours ago, sexton said:

Hi, Caddy, I'm resurrecting this old thread in the hope you are still around. I'm getting close to installing a Mk 4B Meteor in our Mk5/2 Cent at the Ontario Regiment Museum in Ontario, Canada. It's a 1974 rebuild by Scottish Aviation, and it runs well on the test stand after some magneto and carb cleanup. 

I am really interested in the engine installation photos you posted. It looks like you removed the starter, generator, and oil filter, then dropped it in sideways into the hull and rotated it 90 degrees into position. Is that correct? I wasn't planning on removing the oil filter but you say that's needed.

We have the fans installed, but you didn't. Is that a show stopper? 

It also looks like the exhaust manifolds weren't installed. I know we have to remove the right hand one to allow installation of the oil tank post engine install, but is there a reason you had neither installed?  

How did you align the engine to the gearbox? There's quite an elaborate procedure for this in the manual, and I'm struggling with it.

Finally, did the Mk 3 get running under its own power? 

Regards, Malcolm

PS Mike, John's getting back to me.

Hi Malcolm,

 

So, where to start with this?

After my last post funding for the Mk III restoration was not available for a few years, and it was taken outside and covered up. 

About a year back (maybe longer, @Lauren Child what do you think?), we got given the green light to get back on with it and massive progress was made.

All the hull wiring was redone, a replacement main engine was sourced and installed with the clutch and gearbox.

We were also very lucky in that we managed to get Barney back (anyone familiar with the MVW will know Barney - cent man through and through). He was vital when it came to getting the engline, clutch and gearbox back in, and I'd need to pick his brains as to how he managed it. But I think it involved aligning the gearbox to the final drives, then the clutch to gearbox and engine.

The replacement engine has been giving us some grief and looks like the valve timing keeps on slipping, @Lauren Child Myself and a couple of others have become a dab hand at timing the valves and the magnetos but it seems to slip....

Unfortunately there has been another reorganisation with the IWM and I am unsure at the moment as to what the DAS MVW's involvement with the MkIII will be. I haven't been in several months as it's been cricket season and I managed to slip a disk. Hope to be back the week after the Battle of Britain show. Can ask Barney then for you.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[sexton]

Hi, Paul, 

Thanks for responding. I'll send you a PM.

Can you remember if Barney used the very special tool specified in the Manual to do the gearbox-engine alignment? Because I suspect, like so many special tools and elaborate procedures in the manual, the guys in the field found more practical ways of doing the job. That's what I need! 

Whoever took the drivetrain apart before my time bagged and tagged the gearbox alignment shims so I used those when installing the gearbox. That gives me some confidence that at least the gearbox- final drive alignment is ok. 

 

Malcolm

PS. It's unusual for valve timing and magneto timing to slip. What do you figure is happening? 

[Caddy]

Hi Malcolm,

I don't think we have the special tool, Barney might, but I rather suspect that he found an easier way of doing it during his time in the field with REME. I know he has a secret stash of shims that he used.

I've managed to not only slip a disc in my back, but also damage my hip so I don't think I'll be at Duxford till mid October, but won't forget.

with regards to the engine I forget where it was rebuilt, but it was done in a REME workshop towards the end of the first gulf war. Think it was one of the very last Meteors rebuilt so the thought may be that it was never repaired, just crated up safe in the knowledge that the British army would never need it again.

who knows.