question British Army WW2 vehicles. Antifreeze markings on bonnet ? Clive - Richard ?

[David B.]

Here's a rather esoteric challenge for the likes of Clive Elliott and Dickie Farrant - (evening chaps) or anyone else with access to the right information..

 

I've just picked up a handbook for the Austin K2 Ambulance dated June 1940.

 

Just inside the front cover is an insert regarding Frost Precautions and it says " Vehicles with Antifreeze mixture in the cooling system have an identification mark on the Header tank of the radiator,under the bonnet in the form of a disc in a specified colour. THE COLOUR WILL BE CHANGED EACH YEAR"

 

The Americans did it as always -simply. They stencilled the date of when the the antifreeze mix was added. The British....?

 

I have only ever seen a red disc of approximately 1" marked on a white background on the bonnet of British vehicles and over the years I have heard this marking on the bonnet of my K2 described by the general public as " a Japanese kill mark " or something equally daft.

 

Question is - does anyone know if different colours were in fact used for different years or did this system not get used and were all antifreeze markings a red disc on a white background. Any chapter and verse quotes would be welcomed.

[Richard Farrant]

hi Dave,

 

Not seen any regs on this but what you say is correct, I have seen examples from post war of a white square and red circle. I think that I have seen or heard of blue instead of red as well, so might fit in with info you have from the K2 book.

[David B.]

Hello Richard - quick off the mark as always !! I'd like to do a quiz in your team.

 

I've also heard of blue markings. I suppose you have to think that WW2 vehicles with antifreeze mix were quiet rare. Most would have been drained down overnight,certainly in the UK with the exception of the duty 15cwt or an ambulance on call perhaps.

Edited August 29, 2012 by David B.

[Richard Farrant]

Hello Richard - quick of the mark as always !! I'd like to do a quiz in your team. I've also heard of blue markings. I suppose you have to think that WW2 vehicles with antifreeze mix were quiet rare. Most would have been drained down overnight,certainly in the UK with the exception of the duty 15cwt or an ambulance on call perhaps.

 

Dave, I was having my meal and browsing when your post came up, hence the quick response.

 

Quiz team, now theres a thought ! I did read a report of how many Scammell gun tractors had cracked blocks one night in France 39/40, due to not draining or possibly not fully drained. Instances like that put pressure on them to use anti freeze. Will dig around and see if I can come up with more info.

[Brooky]

If you look at some of the early training films the procedure was to drain the vehicles each night and leave the rad cap off to signify the vehicle was drained (and the film also suggested that the engine should be turned over with the drain taps open to dispel the last traces of the water)

In the morning after the bonnet blankets were removed the coolant would have been warmed by the fire prior to replenishing the system

 

Its no wonder that when anti freeze was introduced it saved a lot of aggro !!!

[David B.]

So has anyone any evidence of the circle painted in a colour other than red ?

[Adrian Barrell]

The Cromwell tank service instruction book mentions a circle painted round the header tank filler cap to signify antifreeze. The 1943 dated Cromwell I book calls for a blue band and the Cromwell III book, also likely 1943 calls for a red band. The Cromwell IV book just talks of a coloured band but with no actual colour detail!

[David B.]

Thank you Richard and Adrian for your thoughts.

 

Still no further forward with any evidence of an ordered sequence of colours relating to different years. Is this yet another thing which appeared in print but not in reality ?

 

Has anyone seen any colours other than red ?

[woa2]

I looked up the Antifreeze section in the Driver's Handbook for my Ford WOA2, dated August 1944. It does mention the painted disc 'in a specific colour' but doesn't mention what colour. It does say, however, that if the antifreeze is lost then the disc must be removed.

It does mention about draining the radiator in the event of frost if there is no antifreeze.

[David B.]

Thanks Robert,

 

Just before this request sinks below the waves - has anyone seen any coloured discs in the flesh other than red ?

[Richard Farrant]

Thanks Robert,

 

Just before this request sinks below the waves - has anyone seen any coloured discs in the flesh other than red ?

 

I have seen a blue one, but cannot recollect where ....... that is white disc with full blue centre.

[David B.]

I have seen a blue one, but cannot recollect where ....... that is white disc with full blue centre.

 

Thats either age or colour blindness......

[Richard Farrant]

Thats either age or colour blindness......

 

 

David, just an age thing !

[woa2]

I've just been talking to an ex-REME Sergeant who was in Europe 1944-45. I asked about the discs, and he said that the vehicles they had were not filled with Antifreeze and were drained, so could not help with the disc colour. Evidently it was common to drain radiators and lay up cars for the winter in pre-war days, especially Rolls-Royces, Lancias etc. Was Antifreeze a rarity in wartime British vehicles? He also mentioned that the winter of 1944/5 played havoc with engines in Holland with many cracking with frost.

[Richard Farrant]

Dave,

From the instruction book (dated Nov. 1944) for working a Humber Armd. Car Mk4 in sub-zero temperatures:

55% Glycol + 45% water

 

Warning

A red circle must be painted on the radiator header tank to indicate that the system contains

Anti-freeze, and it is preferable that the red circle should be superimposed on a square painted white for easy

recognition. The diameter of the circle must be 3" (approx)

 

Also stencil in red BLOCK letters on front glacis plate and rear offside skirt plate, the following warning:

RADIATOR IS FILLED WITH

ANTI-FREEZE. DO NOT DRAIN

 

 

Edited August 31, 2012 by Richard Farrant

[David B.]

Dave,

From the instruction book (dated Nov. 1944) for working a Humber Armd. Car Mk4 in sub-zero temperatures:

55% Glycol + 45% water

 

Warning

A red circle must be painted on the radiator header tank to indicate that the system contains

Anti-freeze, and it is preferable that the red circle should be superimposed on a square painted white for easy

recognition. The diameter of the circle must be 3" (approx)

 

Also stencil in red BLOCK letters on front glacis plate and rear offside skirt plate, the following warning:

RADIATOR IS FILLED WITH

ANTI-FREEZE. DO NOT DRAIN

 

 

 

 

Well there is something in black and white (or red at least). A much bigger circle than I've ever seen though,the K2 came with a 1" circle on the rad cowl.

 

I've not come across the wording on British vehicles either. thanks for looking Richard.

[Richard Farrant]

I've not come across the wording on British vehicles either. thanks for looking Richard.

 

David,

I have seen stencilling on front sloping armour of Dingos ( wartime photos somewhere), there was more wording and I think it detailed the strength of the A/F.

[David B.]

David,

I have seen stencilling on front sloping armour of Dingos ( wartime photos somewhere), there was more wording and I think it detailed the strength of the A/F.

 

Thats interesting Richard . I wonder if our mate Singe would be able help out here ?

[Richard Farrant]

and theres more ...........

 

in the 1941 edition of the Humber Armd Car Mk3 instruction book, the following;

"the colour in which the disc is painted will be changed from year to year"

 

This way they would have an idea of how long the A/F solution had been in the vehicle.

[Adrian Barrell]

The wording 'This vehicle is filled with antifreeze 1/3-2/3 and must not be drained' was usually seen on British tanks and indeed it was and is on my Sherman. I presume with 27 gallons of coolant, draining everynight was seen as a problem!

[woa2]

I have found a bit in the 'Manual of Driving and Maintenance for Mechanical Vehicles (Wheeled) dated 1937, reprinted 1940'. It states in Section 18 part 3 :-

 

"Anti-freezing solutiuons will NOT be used except when authorized specially for any particular theatre of operations, in which case instructions for their use will be strictly observed."

 

The Manual also tells you to fill the radiator with Hot Water for starting on cold days.

 

 

This qusetion of these markings has intrigued me and I will continue looking.

[Tony B]

Ah yess, but at the time a lot of anti-freeze used was pure alcahol! :cool2:

[woa2]

I've got somewhere with this question. The colour of the disc is covered in ACIs (Army Council Instructions). I found ACI 833 of 4th October 1947 and it states to paint a RED circle on the Radiator, replacing the Blue of ACI 926 of 1946. Also an ACI of 26th April 1947 states that engines drained of ethylene glycol will have the Blue circle on the header tank painted out. Evidently, the colour of the disc is covered in ACI intructions. I tried 1942 and 1943 but couldn't find anything there.

Oh, yes - If the colour of the disc cannot be seen clearly, you paint a White backgraond to it.

[Richard Farrant]

By coincidence, last week I was rummaging through a box of parts and found a metal disc with wire to attach it, a blue centre with white surround. Forget where it came from now :undecided:

[David B.]

I've got somewhere with this question. The colour of the disc is covered in ACIs (Army Council Instructions). I found ACI 833 of 4th October 1947 and it states to paint a RED circle on the Radiator, replacing the Blue of ACI 926 of 1946.......ô

 

 

So does that point to a sequence of colours used over several years do you think ? If so what other colours were used ?