British WW2 10 cwt GS Trailer

[welshbayonetww2]

You might find this on the mapleleaf forum of some use. http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/showthread.php?t=6932&highlight=10cwt+trailer Doug

[simon king]

Finally some visible progress - completed refurbed axle - in Frank Burbery Service Brown which will need repainting in accurate SCC2

 

 

Just picked up newly manufactured pintle mount - shown with rusted original. It was cheaper to get two made up but it's already spoken for.

 

 

Just waiting for some new raves to be made up and then I can start repairing the frame. It should come together quickly (well relatively) after that

 

sk

Edited July 26, 2013 by simon king

[Wolfy]

Hi Simon,

 

Could you pm me where they were made please? Would be interested in one, I was going to make one myself but buying may be the way to go...

 

Thanks

 

Carleton

[simon king]

Wolfy - pn sent

 

I have used the lunette and rest of the parts from the old pintle assembly - only the housing is new build

 

sk

[simon king]

I have now completed all the metalwork for the toolbox. Was the woodwork for the toolbox sawn timber or marine ply - I'm assuming the answer is sawn timber - but is that right?

 

I've had to work out dimensions of the box from scaling up photos and using known dimensions such as the width of the neck of the trailer etc. The dimensions I have come up with will mean that the box can be made from a single 6ft length of 0.5" X 5.5" timber - which seems to be logical. (4 lengths of 15.5" for top, bottom and sides and 2 lengths of 4.5" for the ends =71")

 

Is there any indication around of the contents of the toolbox - I'm assuming the following

 

 

 

• wheel brace
  
• spanner for hub cap
  
• screwdriver
  
• tin of grease
  
• spare tyre valves/valve caps
  

 

 

Any information most welcome -Thanks

 

In another development, I've also managed to fill another piece in the jigsaw. - replacement tilt rope hooks have been made at the local blacksmith - the skills are still out there if you look hard enough

 

 

sk

Edited August 21, 2013 by simon king

[ajmac]

I have watched this thread with interest as I have been thinking about what to tow behind the Loyd when it is finally complete. They could be configured to tow a 10cwt mortar trailer as I have seen discussed, any tips on searching one out and not accidentally bringing home a GS etc... What are the key points to differentiate between a mortar and other types?

 

Thanks,

[simon king]

What are the key points to differentiate between a mortar and other types?

 

Thanks,

 

Mortar trailers have

 

• squared flat panel mudguards

• mudguard supports bolted to side raves

• front opening in place of tailgate - presumably to allow easy transfer of ammo

• no toolbox

• longer body

• bar through handbrake handle

 

GS trailers have

 

• curved mudguards

• mudguard supports welded to side raves

• tailgate

• toolbox

• body shorter than frame

• plain handbrake handle

 

 

Both were towed by carriers, and some mortar trailers were subsequently converted to GS trailers by adding a tailgate

Both had the two types of hitch - early one with handles on neck and later one with handles as part of the hitch assembly

 

Hope this helps

 

SK

[ajmac]

Many thanks Simon, it seems that angled mud guards is the key feature at a distance.

[David B.]

Mortar trailers have

 

• squared flat panel mudguards

• mudguard supports bolted to side raves

• front opening in place of tailgate - presumably to allow easy transfer of ammo

• no toolbox

• longer body

• bar through handbrake handle

 

GS trailers have

 

• curved mudguards

• mudguard supports welded to side raves

• tailgate

• toolbox

• body shorter than frame

• plain handbrake handle

 

 

Both were towed by carriers, and some mortar trailers were subsequently converted to GS trailers by adding a tailgate

Both had the two types of hitch - early one with handles on neck and later one with handles as part of the hitch assembly

 

Hope this helps

 

SK

 

 

 

Sorry - I would have to disagree.

 

What you have described are roughly speaking the differences between the Number 1 and Number 2 Trailers with the earlier No 1 trailer having the curved mudguards. Mortar trailers and GS versions differed however in the position of the moveable head/tail boards.

 

Mortar and GS trailers were sometimes produced concurrently in the same contracts for mixed types and I believe that whether the tailgate or headboard is hinged and the details of the internal body fittings is what differentiates between GS , Mortar and Mortar Ammunition versions. What confuses the issue very often is the retrospective conversions of the Mortar trailers to a more useable GS type with the conversion of the rear tailboard to a moveable tailgate.

 

There is a lot of confusion about the GS/Mortar question and when I get a bit of time and perhaps with a little help with illustrations will try to illustrate my theory. Certainly any pictures of the trailers deployed with the mortars shows them close to the gun with the rounds being taken from the front of the trailer.

 

I'll try to follow this up but not tonight.

 

David.

[simon king]

The Databook of Wheeled Vehicles certainly illustrates the GS trailer with curved mudguards and the mortar trailer with flat angled mudguards so this might be the source of confusion - although one assumes that the flat mudguards were produced for a good reason - perhaps to allow things to be rested on them - is there any evidence of mortar trailers with curved mudguards? I acknowledge that pressed vs flat mudguards might represent early/late features but one presumes that both were drawn at the same time for the data book.

 

The fact that mortar trailers and GS trailers were included in the same contract might result in the curious (and pointless) front frame extension seen on the GS trailers as that could allow the base frames to be standardised for both GS and mortar trailers with the raves being subsequently welded in place during production according to which type of trailer it was to be. Are the base frames the same and does the mortar trailer also have that second cross girder about 6 inches back from the front girder - some pictures seem to suggest that it does. Perhaps it was there to support the weight of someone man-handling the load out of the front headboard

 

You then have to question why the GS trailer body is shorter - is it really to allow the fitment of a toolbox along the neck? There must be a good reason why the GS trailer has a shorter body with the curious front frame extension

 

Although the internal length of the GS trailer is listed, the internal length of the mortar trailer is not - so we cannot see if the difference equals the width of the front frame extension on the GS trailer. Happy to put a tape measure to my GS frame if someone wants to do the same to a mortar trailer

 

Another feature is the crossbar seen on the mortar trailer handbrakes - why was that added? It doesn't seem to be seen on the GS trailers

 

The old story of the more you know, the less you know......

 

sk

[simon king]

David - I'm more than happy to be convinced otherwise, but.....

 

The Databook of Wheeled Vehicles certainly illustrates the GS trailer with curved mudguards and the mortar trailer with flat angled mudguards so this might be the source of confusion - although one assumes that the flat mudguards were produced for a good reason - perhaps to allow things to be rested on them - is there any evidence of mortar trailers with curved mudguards? I acknowledge that pressed vs flat mudguards might represent early/late features for ease of construction but one presumes that both were drawn at the same time for the data book.

 

The fact that mortar trailers and GS trailers were included in the same contract might result in the curious (and pointless) front frame extension seen on the GS trailers as that could allow the base frames to be standardised for both GS and mortar trailers with the raves being subsequently welded in place during production according to which type of trailer it was to be. Are the base frames the same and does the mortar trailer also have that second cross girder about 6 inches back from the front girder - some pictures seem to suggest that it does. Perhaps it was there to support the weight of someone man-handling the load out of the front headboard

 

The databook also indicates that the only differences between the No1 and no2 GS trailers is that the No2 has solid sides and different sized tyres. It makes no mention of a larger carrying area, which it would probably do if the No2 GS trailer was actually a mortar trailer without the fittings and a rear tailgate There is no reference to No1 and No 2 mortar trailers in the data book. Furthermore it states that the mortar trailers were always fitted with the larger towing eye.

 

You then have to question why the GS trailer body is shorter - is it really to allow the fitment of a toolbox along the neck? There must be a good reason why the GS trailer has a shorter body with the curious front frame extension

 

Although the internal length of the GS trailer is listed, the internal length of the mortar trailer is not - so we cannot see if the difference equals the width of the front frame extension on the GS trailer. Happy to put a tape measure to my GS frame if someone wants to do the same to a mortar trailer

 

Another feature is the crossbar seen on the mortar trailer handbrakes - why was that added? It doesn't seem to be seen on the GS trailers

 

The old story of the more you know, the less you know......

 

sk

Edited August 27, 2013 by simon king

[cordenj]

A couple of period photos to add to the debate.....

 

1. Jeep and Mortar trailer, said to be in Holland. Shame there is not more of the trailer, but think the flat wings suggest it is the mortar variant:

 

 

 

2. A Demonstration photo of a Jeep, 10 cwt Lightweight "airborne" No.1 Mk. II .... and trailed Mortar:

 

[simon king]

There is a "new" picture of a jeep towing a 10cwt GS trailer on the British vehicles forum

 

http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?34395-British-D-Day-markings

[Tony Lawrence]

At long last summer is over (it's p*****ing with rain) and so I have taken spanner and hammer to the mortar trailer to begin it's long overdue renovation. Reading back over the 17 pages on this thread I must admit that too much information can tend to baffle the limited brain cell. I am going to renew the wood with ash, keep to the uneven floorboard sizes (9 3/8" centre plank, 3 each side 4 3/4" plank and outside plank 2 3/4"0 All side and end planks are 4 1/2" wide. All timber is 7/8" thick. Unless anybody can advise I am going to be reduced to using M6 coachbolts with square nuts - I think I must have used these before as the nuts I have rescued fit a new M6 bolt (although a new nut does not seem to fit an old coachbolt!!) At the moment I will also be re-using my mystery tow hitch.The following photos show the beginning before rain stopped play

[Maurice]

Tony are there CDP tracks under your trailer ?

 

I also still have a 10cwt question , somebody once wrote me an e mail with the dimensions from the wood for the little box on the boom of the trailer , but after changing computer i am unable to open these old mails , does anybody still have these dimensions ? got the hinges and the steel work for it.

thanks

[cordenj]

Good photos Anthony.

 

Are you going to have the boards planed all round and machined with T&G?

 

Re coach bolts: imperial Whitworth ones seemed to have a larger diameter head....but unless you mix new and old, not sure who will notice from that side.

 

However, the metric hex nuts will be a give away though. Dont want "trailer trash" to be literal!

[Tony Lawrence]

They are Centurion track links (4 in all). I can't help with the measurements as my trailer is a Mortar trailer with no box.

[simon king]

Tony are there CDP tracks under your trailer ?

 

I also still have a 10cwt question , somebody once wrote me an e mail with the dimensions from the wood for the little box on the boom of the trailer , but after changing computer i am unable to open these old mails , does anybody still have these dimensions ? got the hinges and the steel work for it.

thanks

 

I scaled the dimensions up from the photographs - can't vouch for millimetre perfect accuracy but it must be somewhere near

 

Overall width = 5.5", overall length = 15.5", overall height = 6.5"

 

Made from timber 5.5" wide and 0.5" thick

 

top sides and bottom = 4 lengths of 15.5", ends = 2 lengths of 4.5". These dimensions mean that the box could be made from a single 6' length of timber

 

Metal angle ends = 6" long by 1.5" wide - bolt holes 0.5" from edge or 1.0" from corner

 

I think there seems to be angle iron internally along the sides at the bottom - secured by 3 coach bolts on each side piece - at ends and middle - the end bolts secure horizontal angle iron internally and vertical corner angle iron externally. Presumably the tool box is secured by the four bolts to the neck through this internal angle iron.

 

5 inch hinges and the hasp was made by welding part of a hinge to cut-down and reshaped padlock hasp with a circular hole cut at the end of the slot for the standard early Land Rover padlock eye - or whatever it's called

[Tony Lawrence]

John,I've told you about reading before - as stated in my previous message I am going to use square nuts on M6 coach bolts. With regard to t&g I am not going to use it. Sean's trailer does not appear to have it nor do some of the other trailers photographed on this thread.I am not convinced that they would have bothered with all the extra work involved, especially finishing off around the tops of the sides where they would have had to plane/cut off all the t&g profile

[wally dugan]

TONY

l hope you do not mind me butting in but l have been doing some research on the construction of wooden bodies during

world war two including half ton trailers both british and canadian there is reference to the use of plain edged boards

in the construction of the floors and sides And up to now no reference to the use of T/G l am sure they will have used it

but the main reason for not using it seems to do with the wood swelling

[Richard Farrant]

TONY

l hope you do not mind me butting in but l have been doing some research on the construction of wooden bodies during

world war two including half ton trailers both british and canadian there is reference to the use of plain edged boards

in the construction of the floors and sides And up to now no reference to the use of T/G l am sure they will have used it

but the main reason for not using it seems to do with the wood swelling

 

I noticed someone rebuilding a lorry body on the forum recently and using tongue & groove boards for the floor. This would make the body too rigid and cause stress when the vehicle was driven over uneven surfaces. There is a lot of twisting goes on in a chassis and body, even on the road.

[Tony Lawrence]

Thanks, Wally and Richard for your observations - T&G is definitely out. John, reference your observation regarding head size of coachbolts, today I got a fairly wide headed M6 coachbolt. I will show you at the pub on Wednesday.

[Tony Lawrence]

I've really got the bit between my teeth. The trailer is almost completely stripped down - the floor will be removed at the weekend. It is still road worthy so I will tow it with the jeep to the sandblasters next Wednesday. When I get it back the wheels will come off and I will ask that nice Mr. Corden to come over and give me a hand to turn it over so I can dismantle the wheel hubs and suspension. the hubs have come off before but not the suspension so I think I will be in for some fun!!One thing (or several) I am short of are the original cleats. I have three but the trailer should have at least fourteen (four at each side and three at each end. Does anybody out there have any spare or can suggest a source. These have one central hole and all modern ones have two fixing holes. I picked up 100 M6 x 30mm coach bolts and square nuts for about £10 today with wide, plain heads - perfect. Some photos to show progress and the cleat. More to follow.............

[wally dugan]

HI TONY

A couple of years ago l needed the same type of cleats and all that seemed to be about were the ones with two holes

then some one said try a ships chandlers you know the type that sell bits for small boats and they had some with only one hole in the centre and about the same size

[David B.]

I've really got the bit between my teeth. The trailer is almost completely stripped down

 

Good on you Tony, we've got sidetracked on Dingo cylinder head and K2 steering with next year in mind. Takes up a lot of time and money.. When the time comes to restart the trailer I hope we have all the bits put by and have learnt lots from posts such as yours,please keep it up !

David.