KingTiger Restoration Prospects?

[ajmac]

Does the museum see any prospects of restoring either of the KingTigers to running condition or is it out of the question? I understand that the Henshel machine has no engine or gearbox, is that still true? On a second note, is the museums Cromwell in running order, as I have never see one in operation and it seems quite a hole in the Tankfest portfolio....

[Pzkpfw-e]

The "Henschel" turreted version came from Shrivenham and yes, they took out its guts (Reports of it being engineless in the 1990s). I have a vague memory that the silly buggers junked them not long before the idea that perhaps Bov would like it (back?).

The V2 donated its engine to get the Tiger 1 running?

I'd guess there's no realistic chance of getting either running, especially with the costs of getting & keeping the Tiger 1 trundling around. There's only so much rattling of the collection box that any museum can do.

We'll have to wait for Wheatcroft to do his magic with 50 tons of bits and a bit of gaffer tape.

[AlienFTM]

The V2 donated its engine to get the Tiger 1 running?

 

Certainly at the time I remember when 131 put a conrod through the cylinder head first time it was put under load, they said they'd got a replacement engine from a Tiger 2. Never occurred to me they'd taken it from their own Tiger 2

[ajmac]

I've always wondered what the possibilities of some form of PPP would be, whereby a private person or organisation would go into partnership with the museum in order to restore some of the AFVs which would draw in the crowds. I am sure certain parties would be interested in the KingTigers, JagdTiger, etc (pity about the allied kit). I would envisage a part ownership, in exchange for the restoration of the vehicle, with the completed project being displayed at the museum, with the other party being able to exhibit / operate the vehicle in alternate locations over a period of time in conjunction with the museum. At the end of the day, anything is possible, just look A&E :cheesy:

 

Alternately could The TM go into a partnership with Saumer to do a 'Tankfest+'?

Edited April 15, 2011 by ajmac

[jchinuk]

I've always wondered what the possibilities of some form of PPP would be, whereby a private person or organisation would go into partnership with the museum in order to restore some of the AFVs which would draw in the crowds. I am sure certain parties would be interested in the KingTigers, JagdTiger, etc (pity about the allied kit). I would envisage a part ownership, in exchange for the restoration of the vehicle, with the completed project being displayed at the museum, with the other party being able to exhibit / operate the vehicle in alternate locations over a period of time in conjunction with the museum. At the end of the day, anything is possible, just look A&E :cheesy:

 

While I understand the point, and it's an interesting idea, may I play devil's advocate?

 

There would be a significant cost in actually just moving these tanks about, and what if the 'private' money came from the Middle East, Russia or a German Neo-Nazi, imagine the furore in the popular press if "our" Tiger was shipped out to Dubai or paraded covered in swastikas once a year?

 

I know the British Museum loans items to museum's around the world, but there have been attempts to repossess such items in the past. Remember both the Americans and the Russians think they won the war without help, so both might think they "deserve" a running Tiger in their museums?

 

The other problem with such a sponsorship deal, might be that companies might not wish to be associated with a 'Nazi' tank, which is not really accurate, but the perception of the general public.

 

jch

[The Tank Museum]

I shall get some information for the community on Monday.

 

Edit: Regarding the Cromwell - it isn't part of the Museums Core running fleet - John Pearson may be able to shed some light on its current state.

 

Cheers,

Joel

Edited April 15, 2011 by The Tank Museum

[ashley]

The "Henschel" turreted version came from Shrivenham and yes, they took out its guts (Reports of it being engineless in the 1990s). I have a vague memory that the silly buggers junked them not long before the idea that perhaps Bov would like it (back?).

The V2 donated its engine to get the Tiger 1 running?

I'd guess there's no realistic chance of getting either running, especially with the costs of getting & keeping the Tiger 1 trundling around. There's only so much rattling of the collection box that any museum can do.

We'll have to wait for Wheatcroft to do his magic with 50 tons of bits and a bit of gaffer tape.

 

I remember the museum at shrivenham holding an open day to restore the machine and intrested parties paid approx £3.00 in advance for entry........ only to be told that the visit had been cancelled on arrival at he camp :cry:

 

Ashley

[John Pearson]

This is a really interesting thread - carry on . I shall get some information for the community on Monday.

 

Edit: Regarding the Cromwell - it isn't part of the Museums Core running fleet - John Pearson may be able to shed some light on its current state.

 

Cheers,

Joel

 

You know, until I read this, I had not realised but I have no idea! Over the years, I have been in most of the collection and driven quite a few but I have never even looked in the Cromwell. On the outside, it is absolutely 100% but I have absolutely no idea whether it even has an engine/gearbox! I will have to have a look.

There was a privately owned Cromwell at Tankfest two (maybe 3?) years ago. It ran beautifully but once I had got into it on the lowloader, found out that it would not steer at all, either way so it ended up as a static exhibit only. Now getting into a Cromwell is no mean feat for someone my size so I was really disappointed I could not give it a go.

[ferrettkitt]

 

The other problem with such a sponsorship deal, might be that companies might not wish to be associated with a 'Nazi' tank, which is not really accurate, but the perception of the general public.

 

jch

 

In regards to sponsorship I can't think of any way that would make the Tiger Tank (Nazi Tank) look good on any companies publicity unless its in military circles. The newspapers would have a field day Kitchener being driven over by a tracked swastika festooned tank springs to mind.

 

I can understand why the museum has the Tiger as an attraction but I would much prefer to see something else in its place as a 'core' vehicle. Pro British but not remotely interested in anything far right if you know what I mean.

 

You know, until I read this, I had not realised but I have no idea! Over the years, I have been in most of the collection and driven quite a few but I have never even looked in the Cromwell. On the outside, it is absolutely 100% but I have absolutely no idea whether it even has an engine/gearbox! I will have to have a look.

There was a privately owned Cromwell at Tankfest two (maybe 3?) years ago. It ran beautifully but once I had got into it on the lowloader, found out that it would not steer at all, either way so it ended up as a static exhibit only. Now getting into a Cromwell is no mean feat for someone my size so I was really disappointed I could not give it a go.

 

Please do the Tank Museum should have this as a 'core' vehicle in preference to the Tiger

[ArtistsRifles]

While I understand the point, and it's an interesting idea, may I play devil's advocate?

 

There would be a significant cost in actually just moving these tanks about, and what if the 'private' money came from the Middle East, Russia or a German Neo-Nazi, imagine the furore in the popular press if "our" Tiger was shipped out to Dubai or paraded covered in swastikas once a year?

 

I know the British Museum loans items to museum's around the world, but there have been attempts to repossess such items in the past. Remember both the Americans and the Russians think they won the war without help, so both might think they "deserve" a running Tiger in their museums?

 

The other problem with such a sponsorship deal, might be that companies might not wish to be associated with a 'Nazi' tank, which is not really accurate, but the perception of the general public.

 

jch

 

I thought the King Tiger at Kubinka (Soviet Union) was a runner?? As are/were all their Tiger derivatives.

I've never been there (but would love to go!!)

 

Whatever the US has at the Aberdeen proving grounds seems to be slowly returning to Ferric Oxide going by the state of the vehicles I've seen on the History channel in recent time...

[steveo578]

ArtistsRifles

I thought the King Tiger at Kubinka (Soviet Union) was a runner??

 

I don't know about Kubinka but the Saumur King Tiger was run a few years ago, -as a test -there is a Utube clip knocking about somewhere.

 

As to the APG King Tiger, the sectioned tank was brought in from the cold and given a cosmetic restoration about 10 years ago. in a similar time frame the very early Tiger 1 was sent to Germany on a long term loan -in exchange for its refurbishment- don't know if it's still in Germany -as some realise i'm not a yellow tank fan.

[steveo578]

jchinuk

........There would be a significant cost in actually just moving these tanks about, and what if the 'private' money came from the Middle East, Russia or a German Neo-Nazi, imagine the furore in the popular press if "our" Tiger was shipped out to Dubai or paraded covered in swastikas once a year?

Fair points,

 

I doubt if it turned up in Jordan or the Emirates, assuming there would be any public interest out side of the royal families/armed forces -I doubt that there would be any Nazi/anti/Israeli retoric, Arab inteligencia are far too aware of the damage that Mohammed Amin al-Hussayni's daliance with the Nazis did for the cause of Arab nationalism/independance, I would be more concerned with Neo-nazis in Germany and the Baltic states but happilly I doubt they would have sufficent funds and doubt they would be given any creedance by a western museum -hopefully:undecided:

 

I know the British Museum loans items to museum's around the world, but there have been attempts to repossess such items in the past. Remember both the Americans and the Russians think they won the war without help, so both might think they "deserve" a running Tiger in their museums?

I doubt there would be a problem normally there is an undertaking by major governments -with financial insurance, to prevent this sort of problem, there were some court applications in USA when a number of paintings with dubious provinance were lent by the Hemitage Museum -despite the wide spread belief that "Jews own" the U.S. governance/legal system the cases were ruled as not hearable by the U.S. court.

[The Tank Museum]

I think we are drifting a little off topic - the original topic was discussing whether it was feasible for either of the Museums Tiger 2 exhibits to be restored to running order.

 

Many Thanks,

Joel

Edited April 16, 2011 by The Tank Museum
Added who was writing.

[Pzkpfw-e]

I thought the King Tiger at Kubinka (Soviet Union) was a runner?? As are/were all their Tiger derivatives.

I've never been there (but would love to go!!)

 

Whatever the US has at the Aberdeen proving grounds seems to be slowly returning to Ferric Oxide going by the state of the vehicles I've seen on the History channel in recent time...

 

None of the Kubinka "Tigers" are runners, certainly in recent decades, let alone years.

They do have running Panther G & Panzer IVG.

The Tiger II at the Schweizerisches Militärmuseum, Full in Switzerland is being restored to running condition and Saumur's example is back in running condition.

Remember that these beasts were temperamental, to say the least, even when new, let alone after 60+ years, as the trials & tribulations of the Tank Museum getting the Tiger 1 to run. One assumes it's got very few km on the clock, since it trundled out of the factory at Kassel, in February '43 and most of them whilst it was "Under new management".

The Tiger II in Kubinka broke down for the first time, after only 60 miles, http://www.battlefield.ru/en/articles/282-was-tiger-really-king.html

So, chances of either of Bov's KTs being returned to running order?

0

[The Tank Museum]

The Swiss Tiger 2 Restoration Team have a website here: http://www.koenigstiger.ch/index.html.

 

Some more images here: http://www.ipms-bern.ch/restauration_koenigstiger.html

 

Note: This website is in Swiss and will need to be translated unless viewed using Google Chrome (which translates websites for you).

 

Many Thanks,

Joel

[steveo578]

Pzkpfw-e.

.........The Tiger II in Kubinka broke down for the first time, after only 60 miles,.......So, chances of either of Bov's KTs being returned to running order?....0

 

60miles wasn't too bad all things considered, assuming that both bovington Tigers 2 or three if the Jagdtiger is included have incomplete drive trains perhaps a refurbishment of at loeast one with a commercial or more reliable tank engine might be an idea (can't off hand think of a suitable gearbox due to most post war battle tanks having rear drives.)

 

Whilst it might seem an appauling idea to some it would take the strain off the Tiger 131 as a mobile exhibit.

[ArtistsRifles]

Apologies if this is a dumb question (WW2 armour is not my forte either) - are the manufacturing drawings still in existence? If so is there any reason why - other than the time it will take - that the necessary components cannot be remade in the museum workshops???

[The Tank Museum]

Apologies if this is a dumb question (WW2 armour is not my forte either) - are the manufacturing drawings still in existence? If so is there any reason why - other than the time it will take - that the necessary components cannot be remade in the museum workshops???

 

Hello Neil,

 

The workshops is operating with a very full schedule.

 

Many Thanks,

Joel

Edited April 16, 2011 by The Tank Museum

[ArtistsRifles]

Thanks Joel - the operations of the museum are a bit of a closed book to me I fear. :blush:

 

I would ask if you could use a qualified toolmaker/machinist - but I doubt the H&S guys would welcome me with TL epilepsy ... :-)

[earlymb]

Apologies if this is a dumb question (WW2 armour is not my forte either) - are the manufacturing drawings still in existence? If so is there any reason why - other than the time it will take - that the necessary components cannot be remade in the museum workshops???

 

I'm not sure what mechanical parts are missing, but perhaps it may be an idea to contact the Wheatcroft Collection. They have been making new parts by having surviving original parts scanned in 3D and then make dies:

 

http://www.3dscanners.co.uk/tank_casestudy_compressed.pdf

 

Maybe the 2 projects can help each other so we end up with 2 running Tiger II's...:shocked:

 

Greetz

 

David

Edited April 16, 2011 by earlymb

[The Tank Museum]

This is really interesting technology, I myself am just finishing a Software Engineering Degree and have seen this sort of technology at work.

 

Also an interesting case-study.

 

Cheers,

Joel

[Adrian Barrell]

in a similar time frame the very early Tiger 1 was sent to Germany on a long term loan -in exchange for its refurbishment- don't know if it's still in Germany.

 

No, it's not. It left Germany three or four years ago.

[steveo578]

Adrian Barrell

No, it's not. It left Germany three or four years ago.

 

Thanks for the clarification -I take it a read the restoration was only cosmetic.:???

[Tankman10]

Apologies if this is a dumb question (WW2 armour is not my forte either) - are the manufacturing drawings still in existence? If so is there any reason why - other than the time it will take - that the necessary components cannot be remade in the museum workshops???

 

 

Not sure if the manufacturing drawings do still exist, but certainly under the current conditions of the Museum Workshop, there is no chance of having the parts manufactured "in-house". For a start, they do not have the equipment to produce such items, nor do they have the workforce (specifically trained to operate such equipment). As a volunteer in the workshops, I do hope that when the new workshop has been completed, that the Museum heirarchy will have the sufficient forward thinking to have an engineering workshop on site, the opportunities to bring much needed finances into the museum offering engineering services for manufacturing parts, or indeed, offering a restoration service "ie... "Have your vehicle restored at the home of the Tank" would be financially beneficial to the museum, even offering a shot-blasting or painting facility i'm sure would bring in much needed money for the Museum funds (and then they can re-invest some of that money into restoring or keepin the running fleet mobile).

[Big Al]

Not sure if the manufacturing drawings do still exist, but certainly under the current conditions of the Museum Workshop, there is no chance of having the parts manufactured "in-house". For a start, they do not have the equipment to produce such items, nor do they have the workforce (specifically trained to operate such equipment). As a volunteer in the workshops, I do hope that when the new workshop has been completed, that the Museum heirarchy will have the sufficient forward thinking to have an engineering workshop on site, the opportunities to bring much needed finances into the museum offering engineering services for manufacturing parts, or indeed, offering a restoration service "ie... "Have your vehicle restored at the home of the Tank" would be financially beneficial to the museum, even offering a shot-blasting or painting facility i'm sure would bring in much needed money for the Museum funds (and then they can re-invest some of that money into restoring or keepin the running fleet mobile).

I agree with what andy says, everyone wishes to have there favorte Tank restored and running but in the real world it costs alot more than we can affored. May be one day it will happen. Personaly I would like to see a British WW1 tank restored to a running example but that will not happen.

Al

Edited April 16, 2011 by Big Al