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Jagdpanzer 38 T (Hetzer)


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Now that we are all back on track I'll ask a dull question:

When were these post war Hetzers finally disposed of? I presume that they were rather out dated by the mid 1950's. Were they ever classed as a front line vehicle or did they slip into reserve / training from the very beginning?

 

Speaking of the 38t I'd love to see more restorations of early war vehicles, in some respects the battles of the low contries and France in 1940 have been lost to history, 38t, PzII, PzIII, Matilda I, Vickers LTs etc...

Edited by ajmac
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amjac

When were these post war Hetzers finally disposed of? I presume that they were rather out dated by the mid 1950's. Were they ever classed as a front line vehicle or did they slip into reserve / training from the very beginning?

The last active G13s in the Swiss Army served until the winter of 1971 when the units using them were converted to surplus Centurion (Panzer55-57) -The standard small army thing of the trickle down effect -as the tank rgt. turned in Cents. for more modern MBT -at that time Pz68. It also has to be remembered that the Swiss forces order of battle is very similar to the Israeli with reserve forces, having an on going commitment.

 

The prime reason for buying the Czech TD was probably cost -although the design had something to do with it -the low profile ambush style weapon and importantly at the time weight. Surplus Sherman 76 would have done the same job with a similar capacity KE weapon but were almost twice the weight.

 

The StuK 40 was still viable in the 1950s, as were similar weapons such as US 76 M1A1-2 and the British 77mm. As a weapon the StuK 40 in the G13 was a weapon at the end of its useful life in 1945 as there were consistant reports that PAK 40s in Wehrmatch infantry btns. were struggling against the IS2 series tanks used in the Soviet shock army spearheads. Conversely the success of the Soiviet spring offensive in January 1945 was abributed to the transfer of numbers of Hetzer equipped Panzerjaeger units from the East to participate in the Ardennes and other "forest" battles anlong the Western German border. -The Swiss probably were aware of the Hetzers value in these battles and how the conditions matched similar conditions in nearbye Switzerland.

 

The Swiss tested a wide range of Afvs after WW2- as is evident from those at the Panzer museum at Thune. They had developed the NK1 on components of their version of the Pzkfw38t) and a more home grown NK2. They also tested the Vickers Alteco 6pdr/95mm armed SPGs -which were a development of the Tetrarch airborne tank. The G13/Hetzer were the first Swiss Afv in battalion strength.

 

A few other nations used Hetzer Post War - Bulgaria had a few but Czechoslovakia had them is strength there were over 300 working examples available within the national boundaries, they also manufacured another 50 examples as ST1 and 50 ST111 unarmed training vehicles.

 

By late 1848 the czech Hetzers had been transfered from the 2 tank btns. down to 2 assault gun rgts. where they were better suited, they were used in the early to mid 1950s in assault gun Anti-tank gun units -along with a few StuG3s and were mustered out into reserve in the late 1950s and out of service by 1960.

 

Speaking of the 38t I'd love to see more restorations of early war vehicles, in some respects the battles of the low contries and France in 1940 have been lost to history, 38t, PzII, PzIII, Matilda I, Vickers LTs etc..
There are several Pz38(t) tanks knocking around- notably are the Czech tank museums runner - there may still be a LT vz 38 in Banska -the centre of the 1944 Slovak uprising -it used to be run as a flag carrier on the annual liberation day parade. Switzerland has its verson in Thune, Sweden has at least 1 STRM41, Russia has at least one and surprisingly Iran has 2 on display -which are the first of the CKD tanks. There are several in France and there are still possiblities of barn finds as several seem to have been squirrled away especially after changes of the law regarding ex wehrmacht wrecks in private hands in the early 1970s. Bovington have examples of the other Afvs you mention so all is certainly not lost.

 

Steve

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earlymb

What exactly are all the differences between a 38(t) Hetzer and a G13?

Not much difference -different gun StuK40 as used in StuG 3 which had a muzzle brake -they may be differences in the fitting of the Saukopf blende to fit the different weapon -but there were at least 3 different castings in wartime Hetzers. The Swiss contract is similar to the late model but has a slght chin -but again could be a variation of late war castings -after all Shermans had loads of different configurations so casting variations are often down to local manfacture- and Hetzers were built at both CKD and Skoda.

 

The roof is slightly different as the commander moved over to the left hand hatch position and that required an improved observation kit so a small domed topped cylinder shaped hood protecting the periscope replaced the remote MG -a pintle mounted MG was positioned to the rear of the hatch.

 

New aerial mounts for Swiss radios- in similar position to those on wehrmacht vechicles.

 

Hetzer had German Notek and Wehrmatch distance lights -as did Czech vehicles -Swiss vehicles had Swiss lighting system probably in keeping with their local regs.

 

The Suspension was mostly the same although the 4 hole idlers doesn't seem to be a wartime fitting although again Hetzers had a number of idler types 6hole 12hole etc.

 

As spare wheel was often mounted on the right superstructure side.

 

Power unit can be either original petrol CKD unit or Saurer Aubon diesel -86 were re-engined in 1952 to release motors spares for the other 72 -but most survivors seem to be diesels -possibly like many small armies the petrol ones were written off/scrapped first.

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A marvelous history lesson there!

"Surviving Panzers" has .pdf on Hetzer/G13 http://the.shadock.free.fr/Surviving_Hetzers_G13.pdf

 

The "Panzer Big parts" list has many 35 & 38t turrets & some Hetzer bits

http://the.shadock.free.fr/Surviving_Panzers_parts.pdf

 

35 & 38t survivors are in

http://the.shadock.free.fr/Surviving_Czechoslowakian_armoured_vehicles.pdf

 

There are also 38t surivors in Peru!

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however the vehicle is restored it will be good to see another peice of rare armour out and about rather than sat in a shed going no where ,obviously the owner should rebuild the vehicle to his own taste rather than have to worry about what others say or think ,looking forward to seeing more

nigel

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Sloshing around in here somewhere is a genuine discussion point concerning German wartime armour. I will watch a restoration blog with great interest on anything wartime (and other bits and bobs) but it is quite clear that anything German is restored away from the public eye which is very sad (There is a PzIV well on the way to being completed in England ATM, I've seen a photo, that isn't on the HMVF Radar at all). Why? Please discuss, as I have no idea at all, is it because the people restoring such vehicles are not 'practical' and the work is done by restoration companies? This can't be the reason not to share with fellow enthusiasts as a quick search through HMVF will show up allied vehicle restoration threads posted by companies with the premission of owners.

 

Take it down if you like, at the end of the day if the owner doesn't want it in public view then so be it, he can enjoy it on his own. If someone has to twist your arm for you to show your hand then there is really no hope.

 

If the cards had been laid out on the table in the very first post then this thread wouldn't have turned out as it did (it's still very much salvageable). Perhaps: "This is a Postwar version of the famed German 'Hetzer' of WW2, it is being restored to x,y,z, spec...like many OT810s it may be converted to represent a Wartime Hetzer." would have nipped things in the bud.

Edited by ajmac
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Not much difference -different gun StuK40 as used in StuG 3 which had a muzzle brake -they may be differences in the fitting of the Saukopf blende to fit the different weapon -but there were at least 3 different castings in wartime Hetzers. The Swiss contract is similar to the late model but has a slght chin -but again could be a variation of late war castings -after all Shermans had loads of different configurations so casting variations are often down to local manfacture- and Hetzers were built at both CKD and Skoda.

 

The roof is slightly different as the commander moved over to the left hand hatch position and that required an improved observation kit so a small domed topped cylinder shaped hood protecting the periscope replaced the remote MG -a pintle mounted MG was positioned to the rear of the hatch.

 

New aerial mounts for Swiss radios- in similar position to those on wehrmacht vechicles.

 

Hetzer had German Notek and Wehrmatch distance lights -as did Czech vehicles -Swiss vehicles had Swiss lighting system probably in keeping with their local regs.

 

The Suspension was mostly the same although the 4 hole idlers doesn't seem to be a wartime fitting although again Hetzers had a number of idler types 6hole 12hole etc.

 

As spare wheel was often mounted on the right superstructure side.

 

Power unit can be either original petrol CKD unit or Saurer Aubon diesel -86 were re-engined in 1952 to release motors spares for the other 72 -but most survivors seem to be diesels -possibly like many small armies the petrol ones were written off/scrapped first.

 

Thanks for the reply! I think I have read somewhere that G13's also have a floor escape hatch?

 

I too find the owner is free to restore it as he sees fit without further comments, it will be nice to see it running again regardless of the livery it will sport!

 

I had a few rides in the Crompton Collection's original Hetzer last year; great fun if you can stick your head out the hatch but very noisy and uncomfortable inside! :D

 

Greetz ;)

 

David

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Is the Saure engine mounted in an angel? It looks like one half of the block is pointed directly up and the other pointed out to the side.

 

Does the owner have the plates that have been cut out? I guess that the holes ease access while restoring it.

 

Is it a frame with front axel to move it around with underneathe it?

Edited by Niels v
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earlymb

Thanks for the reply! I think I have read somewhere that G13's also have a floor escape hatch?

 

I wasn't aware of an escape hatch -whether it existed on the Hetzer is also unknown to me, however the Panzerjaeger 4 had one directly under the gunners seat -probably just as well as a very lightly armoured internal petrol tank divided the driver from the gunner.

 

as I said I don't know if the wehrmacht Hezter had a floor hatch but possibly the Swiss may have specified it as they had a PzJgr 4 among the specimens under test- it is preserved at Thune.

 

The earlier PZ38(t) -Czech Lt vs 38 had an interesting emergency escape -the panel in the right rear of the fighting compartment could be opened and access through the engine compartment raising the right deck cover and escape:wow: there are several photos of the 38 with it right deck hatch raised after been knocked out. The petrol tanks were also capable of rapid emptying through the hull floor.

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Niels v

Is the Saure engine mounted in an angel? It looks like one half of the block is pointed directly up and the other pointed out to the side.

 

Yes it is mounted at an angle, the original Praga 6 cylinder inline was a vertical in line which was a Scania Vabis 1664 built under licence by Praga.

 

the likely reason for the angled layout of the Saurer Arbon was that if mounted conventionally it may have impinged on the space set aside for the crew man below the right hatch.

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I do hope that the restoration will be shared with everyone , while I ll never be able to own another HMV I do learn from others efforts and can understand that it can take a very long time to go from the planning stage to ownership to tracking down needed parts and locate the right people to undertake all the differnet specialties needed to make it possable to finish a project .

 

I could be mistaken but it seems to me the rarer a machine is that the difficulty of working out all the details must multiply the cost and stress of everything . I again hope to watch and learn as this project goes along.

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Is the Saure engine mounted in an angel? It looks like one half of the block is pointed directly up and the other pointed out to the side.

 

Does the owner have the plates that have been cut out? I guess that the holes ease access while restoring it.

 

Is it a frame with front axel to move it around with underneathe it?

 

I reckon the hole cutter weighed the plates in, (how did he sneak them out in his lunch bag?) the holes will be filled with regular steel, this presents a problem, grinding and filling the welds will not disguise the change in surface texture, new against the original, to any one but the casual observer.

 

Yes that is the purpose of the frame, this has made an appearance on HMVF before as the chassis from the donor of a fine Cummins engine...:cool2:

Edited by gritineye
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they seem to always be missing the water pump elbow to the water jacket, i have seen a line up of these engines and all of them had the same part missing! very strange.

 

There is a story around that these engines passed to a gliding club or establishment after removal, to power glider launching winches.

 

has anyone else heard this?

 

We are thinking that it is possible that the missing elbows are something to do with this. Maybe short running times meant a rad was not needed and the system was altered to suit, maybe just a tank was used meaning the pump caused problems so was bypassed. Maybe the modified fittings where kept to use on replacement engines.

 

This story would certainly explain why so may survived in good condition.

Edited by gritineye
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Is the post war diesel engine considerably more powerful than the Petrol that was originally fitted, in that it would have changed the driving characteristics to an extent? A local farmer who drove a P6 Diesel engined Loyd said that it drove more easily than with the Flathead V8 as it had more low down torque, ideal for maneuvering.

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just a thought with regard to the holes cut into the hull, i know to take armour through germany it has to have holes cut in the armour to allow the police to shoot the driver even if it's on the back of a wagon and just passing through, could this be the reason for the missing plate ?

 

eddy

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just a thought with regard to the holes cut into the hull, i know to take armour through germany it has to have holes cut in the armour to allow the police to shoot the driver even if it's on the back of a wagon and just passing through, could this be the reason for the missing plate ?

 

eddy

 

Not strictly true. I understand that to privately own a piece of armour in Germany a 300mm square hole must be cut in front of and possibly to the side of the driver to enable shooting him. This can be covered by a maximum of 3mm ms plate.

 

I have seen several vehicles that have had this done.

 

I imported a Swiss Cent through Germany some time ago and though I needed a special permit to move 'war material' through the country, there was no requirement for de-milling at all.

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