Operation Perch

[Tony B]

I'm due to visit Tilly Sur Seuelles in June. Any suggestion on scources. I'd particullay like to pin down the location of Hill 103. Thnaks to HMVF I have plenty of info on Panzer Lehrthrough Fredrick Steinhardt's book. Any scources gladly recived.

[ford 369]

we stayed in Villers Bocage last july so not too far from Tilly ,we didnt find much around the area as it has been redeveloped since 1944 but apparently the museum in the Tilly chapel is worth a look ,I think it is only open for a few hours on saturdays but could be a good starting point

Nigel

[Tony B]

Hi Nigel, I know the museum. Stefan the curator is known to me. We did a thing there on the 65th anniversary. This time its inland from the beaches to Tilly at Stephan's invitation.

Tilley's rebuilding was nessacary as only one building remained standing following the battle for the crossroads. The villiage lost 623 civillian casualties. The place even got shelled by HMS Rodney (The only Britsh warship to shell part of the UK as well!) Did you vist Jersualem Farm? In addition to the cemetery, they also make the Best Calvados in the world! :dancinggirls::beer:

[Degsy]

Tony, I've had a look through a few books and my maps and can't find any reference to Hill 103. There is a point 102 shown on the map east of Tilly, just south of Cristot.

[Tony B]

Thanks Degsey. I'm waiting for a topographic map to arive. Looks like I've got to track all the unit war diaries. Well it will keep me off the streets.

Managed to find the film clip I was looking for. http://www.itnsource.com/shotlist//BHC_RTV/1944/06/29/BGU409160005/ Pity about the cost.

The lsat time we entered down the hill that the troops are sweeping with the detectors.

Edited March 1, 2011 by Tony B

[ford 369]

yes ,the destruction in the area was not something I really considered enough before planning the trip to Villers,I think mr Wittman should take some responsibility for changing tharea so much,we did visit Jerusalem but didnt go for the calvados,to be honest I prefer the local cider.Did you watch the time team Jersey special and marvel at how they "discovered" the "long forgotten" flak battery well forgotten since the underground hospital mapped it out as a war walk several years ago

Nigel

[Tony B]

Yes Nigel. The area Time Team was digging Les Gilliettes is above the confluence of Tesson and St Peters valley. Where the road up to the hospital starts at Tesson Chapel. The area across from the chapel behind Tesson Mill, now part of Bel Royal Garage was the underground power station. To the west is L'Aleval known locally as the German road. There are futher tunnels under there. Behind it is the Strawberry Farm, Jersey Living Legend, that area is dotted with bunkers which formed the Island command post. The area of the dig is on the Cotils. This is the name given to the steep slopes down the side of the valleys. I've been told there were four 88mm guns mounted there. The Germans had a hbit of building positions, then abandoning them or putting in tempoary mounts before stsrting on permenant sites which never got finished. Behind the feild with the menage where the drill round was dug is a concrete anti tank ditch, unles it has been filled in. We lost a little mare in it years ago. Belinda got loose and fell into it. Took a crane to get her out.

[ford 369]

Ive spent many a happy hour wandering up and down route de laleval looking for hidden tunnel entrances and lumps of concrete its always a nice evening wander after dinner at the les Charrieres.I have to say I thought it was rather ungrateful of time team to pretty much ignore the cios especially as Malcolm at Corbiere was telling me how they opened up especially for them last year

[Tony B]

The thing is Time Team is entertainment. The historian for instance, people talked to her. Nanay, nanay, my love! The best public one is John Nettle's DVD on the Occupattion. Thats the most open one to Grockles I've ever seen.

[ford 369]

when you say historian do you mean Gilly Carr?

[Tony B]

Didn't catch the ladies name. I'll go to 4od when I get a chance.

[ford 369]

I am fairly sure it was dr Gillian Carr from Cambridge University ,she is an occupation historian having written various items for magazines such as the armourer and seems to be a supporter of the cios although I think a fair amount of her work has revolved around Guernsey

Nigel

[Tony B]

The whole subject is still touchy amongst those who went through it. You have spend a fair time getting to know people before they will open up. The Islands had very diffrent experiences, Despite the physical closeness the sea forms an effective barrier. What telephone or radio communication inter island was of course under German control. Stories are completly diffrent. Another point of contention (Still) is the actions of the Island's Bailliff.

One thing the Germans did do in Jersey was lay an extensive telephone network. The pile of wires that was found may be one of the mising switch nodes. The 'Revelations' of various historians over the last ten to fitten years over treatment of the Island's Jewish population, and charges of collabaration , lack of resistance to the 'Occupying' ie German forces has caused a lot of hurt amongst the older people. The way the Islands worked would have seemed Feudal to an English person even then. The links to France were much closer. Rather like a smaller version of Ireland, The Islands exported a lot of people, in Jerseys case a lot went to New Foundland. A legacy of the cod fishing grounds explotied by Jerseymen. The cattle of course, though they were often wrongly called Alderney's. Due to the ships used to export them bneing of a type called the Alderney Packet (The original version of 4 and 20 blackbirds, refers to an Alderney Cow) Unfortuantley the number of true Crapaud's, Jersey born and bred is getting fewer, if you are Jersey born of Jersey born parents, you have no rights in the E.E.C. despite a British Passport. Any way wandering off subject.

Edited March 2, 2011 by Tony B

[ford 369]

I think the resentment to talk about the occupation years is very understandable among those who went through it and probably the next generation as well,it is something we all need to be aware of dealing with history within living memory and undoubtedly all the islands faced different issues throughout those years,I am sure this is the reason why the cios have a rule about no wearing of German uniform around its bunkers.

I must say I have heard the lack of resistance questioned before but anyone with an ounce of common sense must surely see the impossibility of the type of resistance that could take place on the mainland.

All in all I think the programme was interesting for the viewing masses just a little off with its claims of discovering long forgotten occupation sites and a little over dramatic with its destruction of the 88 case

[Tony B]

Just reviewed it on 4od. It is the silly things that can cause problems. Take the Anchor butter tin, if that's what it was. December 1944 The Baillifs send a letter via the Protecting power, (Swiss Red Cross) on the state of the Island's supplies. Huffmeir as Military Commander claims it is Britian's problem to feed the civillians. (Bad German) Churchill replies 'let them starve' (Not thought of as a hero by all Islanders) Froths on that feeding civillians will allow rations to Occupying troops and they will continue to hold out.

 

Von Schmettow (Civillian administrator (Good German) undertakes no Red Cross supplies will go to troops, further issues orders that no troops are to accept any civillian rations. Just after Christmas Red Cross ship S.S. Vega arrives with 100,000 Red Cross parcels from Canada and New Zealand, soap salt medical supplies and very important (Because they could stave of hunger pangs) Cigaretes! Parcels were distributed, and people being people, some grumbled that the Canadian parcels were better then the New Zealand ones and vice versa.

 

So how did the tin end up in a German rubbish dump? Was it stolen by the Germans (Bad Germans)? Given by an Islander (Aiding and abbetting enemy combatants)? Or another possibility stolen by roaming slave workers ? There are stories (Corobarated) of violent theft from houses of food by slave workers. (Untrmeshnch). However all this misses one point anyone with a good knowledge of the Occupation would point out. You don't waste a perfectly good tin!!! It would have been used as a plate, cooking pot, reflector for lamp, definitley not just dumped! The German troops would have got rid it very far from the site as if found by an officer there could have been disciplinary action taken, at that stage possible death sentence. Most likley scenario I can see. It was part of the Force 135 rations dumped AFTER the Liberation by troops and POWs cleaning up.

[ford 369]

the anchor tin throws up another question and that is much archeology can never be more than speculation,on a modern site like this every answer can be countered with a question as people remember but if a pot is found in an ancient site and we are told it is a water pot whose around to say its not.To be honest I think your post war clearing up scenario is most likely although I remember speaking to the former bunker commander from Corbiere,Englebert Hoppe and him telling me how a local family used to invite him in for tea ,this I would imagine was not in the winter of 44/45 when things were at their worst but probably earlier

[Stableboy]

Be very aware re unexploded nasties in old tunnels over there; the last one i went in was left very quietly and gently as there was a cast iron German land mine on top of a pile of rotting stuff, and the filling was spilling out and crystallising on the outside and pile...

 

do not disturb!

[ford 369]

how long ago was this? as I was under the impression that all that was accessible was long since remved,mindyou it is hardly surprising if a few got missed

[Tony B]

At age of about 5, (To long ago!) aA nice man from the States of jersey called Eric Walker (B.E,M.) visited us at La Moye School. and spent the whole afternoon showing us all sorts of Ordnance telling us not to touch. As the school leads straight onto the sand dunes at St Quen, and the bunkers.....

 

Shortly after the Liberation the islands were bankrupt. So wa the rest of Britian for that matter. During the late 1940's early 50's ther was a major scrap drivefor rebuilding. a lot of stuff went then. The Royal Enginners were in charge of clearance of the fortifications, and the name of the man in charge I can't remember! :banghead: T.TM. should know, he has copies of the guys pictures of Ward's at work in the Island.

Anyway, the Staes decided that they could in the future cash in on the Tourism side of the Occupation. so a number of items were placed in the HO2 and HO5 tunnels at L' Aleval. HO3 (Entrance by side of cottage) became the Mushroom Farm.

 

In the early sixtes the entrance to the tunnels were brocken open, and a fire was lit in the tunnels. I'm a bit hazy on the full details without checking up but two young boys died as a result of fumes in the tunnels. The decision was taken by the Staes to empty and permenantly seal the tunnels. This was under the command of Lt Col. Blashford Snell. It is covered in his book the White elephants (Or similar title) There is still ordnace about, C.I.O.S. come acros it ocasionally. But it is a licence requirment that any archeological work on a conflict site requires an Ordanace Expert on call. 7.92 Mauser cases could be found by the dozen when I was a kid!

Edited March 3, 2011 by Tony B

[ford 369]

if my memory serves me correctly I think you are talking about Major Frank Sargent RAOC

[Tony B]

Thats the Guy!! I knew it was an odd name in the context. His photo collection is in the C.I.O.S. and Jersey Archive. If the Archive survives various cuts and I can afford the fare to get there when its open.............

[ford 369]

always find that one easy to remember ,just got to get the order right ,major sargent or sargent major .I know what you mean about the fares we recently booked to go over for the week in the summer and it is costing considerably more than all our recent Normandy trips

[dfielder]

Tony, I've had a look through a few books and my maps and can't find any reference to Hill 103. There is a point 102 shown on the map east of Tilly, just south of Cristot.

 

I believe it's just south of Audrieu, between Audrieu and St. Pierre.

My grandfather killed on June 12, 1944 in this area. I should have a photograph of Hill 103 somewhere, that I took a couple of years ago.

There's a school house or hotel de villes in Audrieu that has tank shells as part of the fencing outside the building.

 

D. Fielder

[Tony B]

Where is he buried? Is it in Jersaleum Farm? That is the smallest cemetery in Normandy. Near Hill 103 at Chouain. The CWWG went after the war intending to re-inter the casualties at Bayeux. The local population kicked off. The men had to come to the villiage. They had given their lives for the freedom of the villiage, they had been buried by the villiage, they belonged to the villiage and Honour and duty meant the villiage would care for them! The villiagers got their way!

Stephan who is the curator of the musuem at Tilley is dedicated to the stories of the individuals who took part in the conflict. I would be honoured to pass him details. Due to unxpected circumstances, as you'll know, I am not 100% sure I'll get to Tilly but if I do I'll be honoured to lay a wreath or get photos for you. I have finally amange dto track it down, though as usuual, there was a new survey done post war, so the location may have moved. The area appears to be a road turning just East of Les Hauts Vents, though the contour line strtches round as far as Chat D'Eau.

 

If you look at the Gaumont News clip the hill from which the film starts comes down from Jersualem Farm and the 103 Contour line.

Edited March 17, 2011 by Tony B

[Degsy]

I believe it's just south of Audrieu, between Audrieu and St. Pierre.

My grandfather killed on June 12, 1944 in this area. I should have a photograph of Hill 103 somewhere, that I took a couple of years ago.

There's a school house or hotel de villes in Audrieu that has tank shells as part of the fencing outside the building.

 

D. Fielder

 

Thanks for that, got it on the map now, very close to where I suggested.