steveo578 Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Right matey 1. you were the first person to put an unsupported legal opinion on this thread,(ref your post #10) That was not a legal opinion did I say it was? if so where? 2. When I give my views as to a legal position, I always try to include reference to the legislation to which I refer. You continue to quote the 1989 act -an act that could not be used to give an opinion on LED lamps -as they were not a viable alternative at that time -high brightness LEDs did not exist commercially -so if the 1989 act is quoted it can only be done so on the basis that as it mentions only (filament) lamps with wattage between 15 and 36w for stop lights and indicators (necessary variation to allow twin or multiple lamps in paralel -do I have to explain Ohms Law to you or do you accept my expertise on that subject as previously you have infered that I don't know what I'm talking about with regard to electical instalation and design- the thread How many HMVF members does it take to change a light bulb - relates). 3. Provided the requirement to be "clearly visible" is met, I cannot see any other Motor vehicle or lighting legislation that relates to a pre 1971 vehicle, Pre 1971 vehicles do not need E marks, Conformity marks or even kite marks. They merely have to be clearly visible, to comply with Lighting regs. LED lights are clearly visible or they would not be allowed in modern applications. Your point that lamps on vehicles prior to 1971 need only be clear -by your interperation that would allow some-one to used a parafin light with a wick or a candle or more seriously a single 10mA white LED which can be visible at up to a 1000m. In all legislation there is a glossary of terms and definations and that defines things in this case a lamp- and what its parameters are -normally and even prior to 1989 1971 or whatever, this is normally as BS standard - BS means British Standard not what you normally pen. The sum up you like legislation ok advise the forum the legislation is that specifically makes LEDs legal on UK roads- if you can't it's time to shut up. I will go further you like playing lawyer you are not, you are some-one that has gotten hold of a legal book but lacks the necessary training-education to use it properly, everyone on HMVF may give an opinion even you, but you certainly do not have the right to behave the way you do in often sarcasiticly attempting to belittle others -while I been privilaged to be on the forum you have systematically annoyed numerous people you've even mananged to p*** **f the moderators on several occasions and to be honest the way you behave makes me wonder whether I should continue. As I've said before I don't want to comment on your posts in future and as you like legal related matters to quote from the 1970s U.S legal drama - The Paper Chase, "Mr **** here is a shroud as far as I am concerned you don't exist" Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 (edited) Right matey 1. That was not a legal opinion did I say it was? if so where? 2. You continue to quote the 1989 act -an act that could not be used to give an opinion on LED lamps -as they were not a viable alternative at that time -high brightness LEDs did not exist commercially -so if the 1989 act is quoted it can only be done so on the basis that as it mentions only (filament) lamps with wattage between 15 and 36w for stop lights and indicators (necessary variation to allow twin or multiple lamps in paralel -do I have to explain Ohms Law to you or do you accept my expertise on that subject as previously you have infered that I don't know what I'm talking about with regard to electical instalation and design- the thread How many HMVF members does it take to change a light bulb - relates). 3. Your point that lamps on vehicles prior to 1971 need only be clear -by your interperation that would allow some-one to used a parafin light with a wick or a candle or more seriously a single 10mA white LED which can be visible at up to a 1000m. In all legislation there is a glossary of terms and definations and that defines things in this case a lamp- and what its parameters are -normally and even prior to 1989 1971 or whatever, this is normally as BS standard - BS means British Standard not what you normally pen. The sum up you like legislation ok advise the forum the legislation is that specifically makes LEDs legal on UK roads- if you can't it's time to shut up. I will go further you like playing lawyer you are not, you are some-one that has gotten hold of a legal book but lacks the necessary training-education to use it properly, everyone on HMVF may give an opinion even you, but you certainly do not have the right to behave the way you do in often sarcasiticly attempting to belittle others -while I been privilaged to be on the forum you have systematically annoyed numerous people you've even mananged to p*** **f the moderators on several occasions and to be honest the way you behave makes me wonder whether I should continue. As I've said before I don't want to comment on your posts in future and as you like legal related matters to quote from the 1970s U.S legal drama - The Paper Chase, "Mr **** here is a shroud as far as I am concerned you don't exist" Steve That was not a legal opinion did I say it was? if so where? Don't want to put a damper on this but unless the side light, turn indicator, stop lights and turn indicator relays are DOT approved and have compliance marking they should not be used on the public highway, -even though they are better than filament lamps. Steve What is it then? You say LED lights should not be used, even though they are better. Why should they not be used? Surely if you suggest that we shouldn't use them the only reason is surely legal, or am I missing something? The decency laws in the country say that I must keep my genitals covered in public. When the legislation was drawn up there was no Nylon, or other synthetics. There was Linen, cotton, wool etc, but not polyester. The requirement of the law is that I cover myself, it does not say what with. I can wear Polyester underpants, and a polyester suit to achieve this. It matters not that these materials did not exist at the time the legislation was drawn up, I satisfy the legislation provided my privates aren't hanging out, even though the technology I use to achieve it did not exist at the time the legislation was enacted. Likewise the only requirement for Front and rear position lamps is that they are clearly visible. It does not matter what technology use to achieve it providing I show a "clearly visible" light. Re Stop lamps indicators, If a Stop lamp is fitted to a pre 1971 Motor vehicle there is no requirement as to Wattage, If a Stop lamp is E marked there is no wattage requirement. The wattage requirement of between 15 and 36watts only applies to Stop lamps fitted to vehicles First used after after 1. 1. 1971 which are not E marked. This means an LED bulb can probably be fitted inside an existing lamp on a pre 1971 vehicle. The problem , Which I myself highlighted, is with Indicators. If the Unit is not E marked then Wattage must be between 15 and 36 Watts. You may not be able to fit LED bulbs into unmarked units, but you canstill fit complete lamps which are E marked , using LED technology. In all legislation there is a glossary of terms and definations and that defines things in this case a lamp- and what its parameters are - The interpretation of the act is here. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1989/1796/regulation/3/made Unless I am missing something it does not define what a lamp is, It does not mention Bulb in the interpretation, It does not mention Filament" in the interpretation so sorry, the interpretation of the act is of no use in this argument. I will go further you like playing lawyer you are not, you are some-one that has gotten hold of a legal book but lacks the necessary training-education to use it properly, In response to your previous query- In 2003 the UK govt. (disprooving the right wing British press ranting that HMG cowtow to EU legislation) broke with the EU directive (EMC Directive 89/336/EEC) which allowed CE marked retro-fit lighting components to be fitted to vehicles in use in the UK- this however has no effect on vehicles built to Unified Type Approval hence many vehicles on UK roads have quite legally LED indicators, the replacement directive Automotive Directive 95/54/EC proscribes use of any retro-fit or aftermarket alterations to vehicles that are not (in this case of lamps) E marked -including LED lamps ......... additional retro-fits must conform to the requirement at the time they were fitted and any lamps can only be like for like so lamps fitted to vehicles of 1940-50-60 vintage can only use a similar filament lamp . Pot calling the Kettle Black? Antarmike .......additional retro-fits must conform to the requirement at the time they were fitted and any lamps can only be like for like so lamps fitted to vehicles of 1940-50-60 vintage can only use a similar filament lamp as originally fitted . Can you point me in the direction of that legislation? Without stating which piece of legislation contains this requirement, there is no way to substantiate whether this is a genuine requirement of UK law, whether it only relates to vehicles first use after a certain date or if it is just something from a "Barrack Room" Lawyer. Which legislation contains this requirement for a pre 1971 vehicle? I do not feel that I have to provide proof of legislation that says LED lamps can be used, (for the same reason I do not have to prove I can wear Polyester to cover my privates). Rather I believe the need to provide proof is on you to justify your "like for Like" remark and to say what legislation that comes from. I repeat I may be wrong. I have said I am unfamiliar with this legislation, I want to check it out and see whether it exists, whether there are exemptions for vehicles of a certain age etc. If I am wrong I will say so, but please someone , which legislation does this come from? Thought for the day , "Are you suggesting that Steam engines built with Paraffin lamps that now have electric lamps are illegal. Are you suggesting that Vintage/ veteran Cars built with Carbide headlamps are illegal if run now with Electric Lights?" It is a pity that reasoned argument, and analysis of the law has degraded to Personal insult and abuse. You have had a chance to state the legislation this comes from. If you had been able to do that that might have been the end of it. You have failed to do that and are now just resorting to name calling, That is a pity. Edited February 5, 2011 by antarmike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 (edited) Today 01:05 Mike As far as I am concerned if you disrespect people by using terms such as barrack room solicitor (the term is barrack room lawyer anyway) I think in future the best thing is that we ignore each others posts. Steve Can you point me in the direction of that legislation? Without stating which piece of legislation contains this requirement, there is no way to substantiate whether this is a genuine requirement of UK law, whether it only relates to vehicles first use after a certain date or if it is just something from a "Barrack Room" Lawyer. Which legislation contains this requirement for a pre 1971 vehicle. Last edited today by Antarmike today at 00:0 Sorry I am confused. I used the Term Barrack Room Lawyer, not because I wanted to insult you, but the "Like for Like" quote Or very similar appears on various other message boards/ discussion forums, and everyone seems to be looking at other forums and cutting and pasting from these. It did not appear to me last night that your post re "like for Like" was an original thought, but rather a re-hash of something from another forum, and the term was in relation to the countless times last night or saw the "like for Like" quote without anybody, anywhere attributing it to a particular piece of legislation. I don't need you to point out to me that the term is Barrack room Lawyer. You will see that I edited the term almost one hour before you saw fit to tell me. Edited February 6, 2011 by antarmike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackpowder44 Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 I must admit I'm now thinking about this option for the Jeep. Mag-mount extra light units with plugs. It should certainly keep everyone else happy :angel: Shame about cutting into the authentic - looking wiring harnesss though.... You can wire them up inside the rear nearside locker to the trailer socket, thats what I have done, John. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Barrell Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 Now this thread has turned into a pissing contest, it's got really boring.......:rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marmite!! Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 Now this thread has turned into a pissing contest, it's got really boring.......:rolleyes: Yes you are right, been working away for a few days but back now, back on topic please & keep it friendly or post will start dissapearing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gritineye Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 What's wrong with keeping all your lights original and using a trailer board with as many LEDs / beacons as makes you feel safe fixed onto it, for when you feel vulnerable. When displaying or if plod doesn't like it just take it off... Or tow a trailer with better lights like I do..:angel: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 (edited) What's wrong with keeping all your lights original and using a trailer board with as many LEDs / beacons as makes you feel safe fixed onto it, for when you feel vulnerable. When displaying or if plod doesn't like it just take it off... Or tow a trailer with better lights like I do..:angel: That is a logical way forward. LED lights have other advantages that this solution does not address. Some WW2 vehicle still running on their original Generators/ Dynamos struggle to keep the batteries charged when running with all the Lights on. Whereas headlamps draw the greatest current, replacing Filament lamps with LED's reduces the current drain, and improves the chances of Dynamo keeping up with the load. Edited February 6, 2011 by antarmike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gritineye Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 A major but often overlooked advantage of a trailer board is that if you are asked to remove it, you can throw it on the road, jump up and down on it and tell it in no uncertain terms what a so****ing useless waste of money time and effort it is! This hurts no one and provided you pick up all the pieces, should result in you being waved on your way by a merry smiling policeman, something you may not experience very often, if ever! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 (edited) The "Like for Like" seems to be concerned with achieving an E mark, not fitting bulbs or lamps to a vehicle.. This from a Vehicle bulb sales site "An E mark is a certification that the bulb conforms to European regulations to allow it to be used in the application it is designed for. Unfortunately one of the criteria for an E mark is that the bulb has to be the same type as the one it is replacing. E.G. filament for filament, led for led etc. As this is not the case here (led for filament) it cannot technically achieve an E mark. However the light output and colour of light is by far sufficient so will pass and MOT" The "like for like" is in relation to the process of gaining an E mark, and is not related in any way to vehicle lighting regulations or to which lamps and bulbs can be fitted as replacement parts to older vehicles that do not require E marked Lighting components.. An LED bulb cannot gain an E mark if it is to replace a filament lamp. An LED bulb without an E mark cannot legally be used as a replacement for a Filament bulb in a modern vehicle that requires E marked components in the lamps. An LED bulb, with or without an E mark, can however be fitted to a vehicle that originally had filament lamps, but is old enough not to need E marked components in its lighting. It is my take on this that since pre 1971 motor vehicles do not require E Markings, I personally cannot see why you cannot use a non E marked LED bulb in that application, since there is, quite simply, no requirement for lamps to be E marked on 1971 or earlier vehicles. Now it seems that "Like for Like" relates to gaining an E mark, and not to any vehicle lighting regs, just for information, can anyone tie down further what the Rules for Gaining an E mark actually say. I am totally of the opinion that LED lamps and bulbs can be fitted to WW2 vehicles. (but please refer to my earlier comments regarding indicators, that will require complete E marked units to be fitted since this is the only way around wattage requirements.) For clarification, earlier posts has said that No unmarked components can be used, which seems to say you can't use (unmarked) N.O.S. Filament lamps and bulbs. Don't want to put a damper on this but unless the side light, turn indicator, stop lights and turn indicator relays are DOT approved and have compliance marking they should not be used on the public highway, ..... Steve ....Instant MOT failure and fine from the Police if they are not marked.... I would challenge these statements, and say that it appears that not only may non E marked LED lamps be used but old stock, non E marked, Filament lamps, and bulbs can also be used on a pre 1971 motor vehicle, providing the resultant lamp is "clearly visible" and the indicator relay causes the direction indicators to flash at between 60 and 120 flashes per minute. Comments welcomed. Edited July 2, 2011 by antarmike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferrettkitt Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 (edited) The average Bobby on the beat or on the move in a car isn't likely to worry about E marks ce numbers or some eu number he will do you all the same if it isn't working when it should be. Use some common sense and you will be fine. The light board suggestion was a great one This thread has developed into a slanging match which isn't of any interest to me or I suspect the vast majority on here. A perfectly good thread has developed into the use or interpretations of various rules and regulations which I suspect wasn't the intention of the original poster. Edited February 6, 2011 by ferrettkitt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.O.S. Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 (edited) I think that is a very sensible summary of both situations, Andy. With regard to LED lighting - The use of a lighting board is certainly a totally sure way to be more safe than original fitment lights allow and keeping within whatever the law might be, albeit at the same time destroying the illusion of a wartime or whatever vehicle travelling around. For my purposes I would on balance prefer to adapt rear lights to keep the original appearance, yet have a safer lighting system. I really don't think anyone but a rivet counter will either notice, or be offended, if they see such a modified vehicle on the move or even on display. Havig said that I am looking at commercially available round LED rear truck/trailer light units to put on the GMC and larger trucks. The diameter is around 30% bigger - but with an O.D. lense shroud cut to similar profile and in proportion to the original lights (so visible lense area is same shape but bigger) they should not look too out of place, and acceptable to the originality police. What the real police would think of them I don't really know. I have found out that some LEDS are voltage specific - not all can be used on either 6, 12 and 24 volts - some can be used on all! With regard to discussing such topics as this - (the solutions to which to some extent revolve around the law and vehicle regulations) - it is always helpful to have input of views, references to specific legislation and also concerns that some members may have and consider should be passed on. However it should stop there. We should be able to agree or disagree and not carry on until all opposition to our own individual views is exhausted by either sound reasoning, rude attrition or disruptive behaviour. One problem is sometimes having too much information to allow you to do what you initially consider to be the safest thing, yet too little information to enable you to work out what is the best solution. Edited February 6, 2011 by N.O.S. Time to clean this thread up. Got to start somewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
79x100 Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 It's perhaps not surprising that one of the major suppliers of LED units mentioned earlier deals primarily with motorcycles as, whether strictly legal or not, many riders of older motorcycles have been using them for some time. I live overseas so I don't have to worry too much about UK specific legislation although I'm no doubt subject to some sort of European alternative. I'm certainly, as a motorcyclist, compelled to ride with daytime headlights and the fact of the matter is that the 35w dynamos that many of us have struggle to keep the battery up when using a 25w headlamp and a 6w tail, without taking into account the fitment of a brake light which wasn't originally present. The vibration resistance of LEDs is also a considerable advantage on an older motorcycle. Using an LED 'bulb' and a resistor allows me to have a brake light function without altering the original bulb holder and lamp connections which to my mind leaves the machine more 'original' than modifying a seventy year old lamp fitting. I've also, heaven forbid, fitted a 10w halogen pilot bulb. I have a re-silvered reflector and in combination, this gives illumination not disimilar from a conventional 6v 25w bulb. There is no doubt that it's not strictly legal but I'm confident that it complies with the spirit of the law and it gives me some chance of retaining a charged battery. I see that Paul Goff now has LED units which can replace even this function for less current draw. I consider myself to be experienced and sensible enough to make my own decisions regarding the use of a vehicle which quite clearly doesn't comply with modern expectations in many ways. I'm prepared to live with the consequences of my actions. ...Don't tell anyone but I have a non-illuminated speedometer that could also be added to the charge sheet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mash Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Not LED related i know, but with a bit of rewireing these could easly be adapted to workinglights on the rear of any of our military vehicle and can be removed in seconds. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=380294890634&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gritineye Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Not LED related i know, but with a bit of rewireing these could easly be adapted to workinglights on the rear of any of our military vehicle and can be removed in seconds.http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=380294890634&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT That is just like the set I made up and have used for years, only mine fix on with a nut, kept the small original trumpet rear lights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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